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Thank you, GC. That's what I've been trying to tell people all week. Most people aren't level 80 yet. If you're level 80 and have seen all the raid content, you are not a "casual" player by the terms that most people apply that label.



And this is a good thing. Besides, there is absolutely no way the devs could ever keep up with the thirst for new content that some players seek. The only way to slow down people who have already finished Malygos and Naxx would be to artificially create some sort of "croctch-block", where an encounter would be so difficult that people would slam their heads against it until enough players catch up to them.



Exactly, these are starter raids. Ulduar and Icecrown will have a steeper learning curve. Don't panic because we're starting off with UBRS and Onyxia. BWL is coming.

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You are exactly right - Blizzard would go bankrupt if it had to pump out content to keep the speedleveling hardcore gamers busy. I had some people in this thread lambasting me for even saying what I've said. The powergaming hardcores, for whatever reason, are unwilling to log off the game and do something else. They run out of content and then complain that it was too easy.

They are totally oblivious to the point that they play the game far, far more than the average WoW subscriber. They are on the extreme end of the playerbase spectrum.

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I've done Sartharion with 3 drakes. It took us less time to learn Sartharion with 3 drakes than the vast majority of fights in TBC. I'd say the only fights in TBC which were easier than Sartharion with 3 drakes were Lurker, Void Reaver, Akama, Supremus, and Najentus. So what is supposed to be the hardest fight in the game is, I'd say, about a 3/10 in relation to all of the raid content I've done so far.

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Try this content.

Get rich in RL while playing WoW.

GC said in his post that these contents are mostly easy mode for casual players to see high end content. Put your epeen back in your pant.

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Call me old fashion...
Hybrid population is on the rise and pure class populations are going down, particularly hunter and warlock numbers

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Huh?

Have you seen the shaman population graph over the past 2 years?

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i think that just shows how gear dependent we all really are; i picked up 4pc t7 so i could also pick up eclipse (my crit wasn't high enough to warrant getting it til 4pc imo) and my DPS jumped up a TON, like by more than 500 DPS.

I see the person with 5100 has some very good pieces, best in slot in alot of places, so i would expect other people to jump up really high at that gear point too.

Especially seeing as wow's developers have continued to say that high/max DPS will be very skill AND gear dependent.

Hunters are going to plateau soon; they are at hit cap very easily when everyone else is wearing rigids, veileds, glintings, and accurates, etc - when that stops happening, hunters in proportion to everyone else will drop. As i understand it, mages are having the same problem; they hit capped from gear very early unlike many other classes that have to wear those hit gems, so it will most likely balance out by next tier IMO.

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I'm hitcapped, with 4 items best in slot already, and the rest with the exception of my legs and rings pretty damn good. (for some reason armory doesn't show lambent forest emeralds).

My best DPS on patchwerk is 3400, flasked and fully raid buffed. Mages in much worse gear in my guild are pushing 4500 DPS....so you mean to say they Elemental Shaman are magically going to "Scale" 1100 DPS better than a mage or a hunter as our gear gets better?

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So why again are you not going to let mages compete with rogues for #1, along with hunters and warlocks? It really is horribly frustrating to have rolled a mage all those years ago and still have to play with this crap :(

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Then you, sir, are a terrible mage. Mages, Locks, & Hunters are top DPS classes right now according to the top 50 wws parses on Patchwerk.

http://wowwebstats.com/?npc=16028

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http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=13129907229&sid=1

The top 14 are all hunters, mages, and locks. In fact, there are only 10 individuals who aren't hunters, mages, or locks on that list--warriors, shaman, and a single DK (at the very bottom). Seems that the only pure class having a problem is rogues.

Furthermore, some people don't like to heal or tank. Or, alternatively, they simply prefer the unique style of a particular DPS class/spec over others. Given that such a player, if they're good, will perform just fine in a raiding atmosphere, their class choice really doesn't make a huge difference.

When looking for the DPS to fill out a raid, do you think people really say "well...we need 6 DPS...better make sure at least 3 of them can offheal/offtank in a pinch!" Or even 2 of them, for that matter?

Your overall point would be valid--if it wasn't based on flawed premises.

Edit: Yes, I'm a druid. I've also always raided resto, from MC to Brutallus to beta and now clearing WotLK (not that that's exactly anything impressive). I have no personal stake in hybrid DPS.

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Number one I clearly stated that NO I do not think we are at the 95% of pure DPS, I said at that point there is no reason to roll a pure DPS class... In terms of DPS it's all pretty much the same, I could pick up a moonkin and learn a rotation in a very short amount of time, or a SP, or a mage (have one). The styles are not all that different and take very little time to learn...

Secondly no your right people do not say "hey we might need a healer in a pinch" However when you CHOOSE to roll a class you think about class viability do you not? How many warlocks did you see when one or two made it to 40 mans? Hardly ANY...

I see your point about not liking to tank or heal, then why roll a hybrid Damn well KNOWING that blizzard and the community SINCE vanilla had predominantly placed them in healer rolls? Yea you like the play style of a moonkin grats just don't expect to be the end all of everything. IF Blizzard in fact delivers on promises of raid tank viability and 95% DPS of pure classes then you will be the end all of classes because the healing is already a given, although later in the game that can be an issue as well...

Look at your class IF blizzard delivers...

Tank- 95%
heal- 100% viable
DPS- 4275 DPS


Warlock

DPS- 4500 DPS
heal- 1% ( HEALTHSTONES!)
tank- 1% (gimmick fights)

Yeah what class do you roll pvp aside? Pretty obvious. Trade 225 DPS for two other viable rolls? 5% DPS is TRIVIAL in comparison. Raid wide you might be doing 50,000 DPS replacing a two pure classes with hybrids and losing 500 DPS between the two is 1% raid dps cut UNLESS your party/raid buffs are better than those of a pure DPS class such as a ROGUE, in which raid DPS could GO UP by taking hybrid over a pure class. Replacing a rogue with a mookin giving 4 casters a huge buff to crit would be huge DPS increase... If all four casters gain 250 DPS in the group the rogue has to do at least 1000 DPS more than you to be worth taking again who would you bring?

Now is Blizzard going to give hybrids 95% of pure class DPS? I don't know blizzard says a lot of things, and often times what Blizzard delivers if a far cry from what the community interpreted (maybe not blizzard's fault) that commitment to be.

Do I want hybrids to be DPS viable? Yes, some of the best players I've known are moonkins/restokins! However I think a better route is to increase the effectiveness of party/raid buffs hybrids have at the same time- having damn good, but not 95% of pure dps classes... Blizzard seems to have done this in some areas I think they should concentrate on making Hybrid DPS strong, with VERY strong buffs to party/raids...

Now am I saying pure classes don't have these? No, of course we do, this is the area that Hybrids should really own, and pure classes shouldn't. In other words hybrids should increase RAID DPS more than pure classes do by a fair margin and pure DPS classes should dish out more damage by a fair margin...

Again this is a statement of where the game should be IMHO... Not that I feel like the game has already arrived at either one of our positions of where the game would be in a perfect world...

[edit]
I just read a blue saying...

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might shelve a good rogue because bringing the shaman for WF was a better overall improvement for dps, even if the shaman was face-roller. That just sounds broken.

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Don't you realize that by upping hybrid DPS to damn near pure dps class levels whilst keeping there party+raid buffs this is exactly what is going to happen? I understand this is a tough issue, but if a shaman got credit for a WF proc on a damage meter or a moonkin got credit for the extra damage I got froma crit which I wouldn't have normally RNGed they might realize that their 4100 DPS they bring to the raid could be actually closer to 5100

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Try this content.

Get rich in RL while playing WoW.

GC said in his post that these contents are mostly easy mode for casual players to see high end content. Put your epeen back in your pant.

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We raid 2 nights a week including sarth with 3 drakes and clear all content. That leaves open 5 days, so we raid less than you do. You're wrong to think that to be good at WoW you have to play for hours on end. Truth is, the good players probably play less than the bad ones because we spend less time sucking at it. We probably make more money than you do IRL because like WoW, you probably take twice as long to do something half as difficult as the rest of us.

Go back in your corner and be terrible.

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We raid 2 nights a week including sarth with 3 drakes and clear all content. That leaves open 5 days, so we raid less than you do. You're wrong to think that to be good at WoW you have to play for hours on end. Truth is, the good players probably play less than the bad ones because we spend less time sucking at it. We probably make more money than you do IRL because like WoW, you probably take twice as long to do something half as difficult as the rest of us.

Go back in your corner and be terrible.

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Yes, you do everything faster. Your level 5 forum troll alt proves to me that you are hard working and skilled.

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We raid 2 nights a week including sarth with 3 drakes and clear all content. That leaves open 5 days, so we raid less than you do. You're wrong to think that to be good at WoW you have to play for hours on end. Truth is, the good players probably play less than the bad ones because we spend less time sucking at it. We probably make more money than you do IRL because like WoW, you probably take twice as long to do something half as difficult as the rest of us.

Go back in your corner and be terrible.

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Not jumping on the "bash hardcore players" bandwagon here. Not flaming you either, just pointing something out.

If you're clearing sarth w/3 drakes and have cleared all content to date, prove it. Post on a main.

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We raid 2 nights a week including sarth with 3 drakes and clear all content. That leaves open 5 days, so we raid less than you do. You're wrong to think that to be good at WoW you have to play for hours on end. Truth is, the good players probably play less than the bad ones because we spend less time sucking at it. We probably make more money than you do IRL because like WoW, you probably take twice as long to do something half as difficult as the rest of us.

Go back in your corner and be terrible.

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Sorry troll. I refuse to believe that you played this game less than the average player and have already leveled to 80, gathered the appropriate heroic gear, and cleared all the raid bosses.

Nope.

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I'm hitcapped, with 4 items best in slot already, and the rest with the exception of my legs and rings pretty damn good. (for some reason armory doesn't show lambent forest emeralds).

My best DPS on patchwerk is 3400, flasked and fully raid buffed. Mages in much worse gear in my guild are pushing 4500 DPS....so you mean to say they Elemental Shaman are magically going to "Scale" 1100 DPS better than a mage or a hunter as our gear gets better?

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Your not capped.. but thats not the problem elemental just sucks... btw there is a buff going into the elemental tree.. hope it helps some.

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1) If you're 80 already, you are a relatively hardcore player. Most WoW players are not 80 yet. If it's easy for you, it's not easy for everybody.

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I just turned 80 today. I barely seen the inside of Kara, never been to Gruuls or beyond. How does that make me "hardcore" by your standards? The fact I can "singleplayer" through this game takes me very little effort; but for the time consuming stuff I really don't have that much time to spend on it. I'd love to know what "hardcore" means, since apparently it doesn't mean what I think it means.

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2) We want more players to see the content. Naxxramas and Malygos are cool! We want people to see them. Heck, we brought Naxx back in part because so few people had seen it.

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And very few people have seen Illidian and KJ, are they coming back too? If I recall, Naxx came out a month or two before BC came out; there was little to no chance a good percentage of the population were going to "see" those encounters from the start.

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3) Very few of the people who are saying WoW is EZ mode have done Satharion with 3 drakes yet. Give that a shot then get back to us. :)

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This is similar to the argument, "Well everyone can ride a bike, but can you do it standing on your head backwards and with your eyes closed on a tightrope?" There are always going to be the few go-getters out there that will try it and do it (maybe should be a life achievement of some sort). But that still doesn't change the fact that its easy. The difficulty level of a specific aspect of a stunt does not make the actual stunt any harder.

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4) Ulduar will be harder. It still might be do-able by more than the most elite 5% of players, but it will be a lot more challenging. And we'll continue to have "hard modes" that are even more challenging. We'll make sure some of these challenges offer appropriate rewards.

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As long as it fits in with your vision of having more accessible content, I have no problem with this.

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I just turned 80 today. I barely seen the inside of Kara, never been to Gruuls or beyond. How does that make me "hardcore" by your standards? The fact I can "singleplayer" through this game takes me very little effort; but for the time consuming stuff I really don't have that much time to spend on it. I'd love to know what "hardcore" means, since apparently it doesn't mean what I think it means.

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Read his meaning - relatively hardcore. What he said (and has access to numbers we do not) is that the majority of WoW players are not 80 yet. Hardcore does not mean "plays non-stop and lives in a basement", but devoting time and effort that others don't. Or you are just a better player, or ...etc.

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And very few people have seen Illidian and KJ, are they coming back too? If I recall, Naxx came out a month or two before BC came out; there was little to no chance a good percentage of the population were going to "see" those encounters from the start.

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He's not saying they brought back Naxx "because so few people saw it". Try not to pick apart each sentence he posts and take it out of context. You kind of answered your own question as well, and backed up the sentence you picked apart. Naxx came out a bit too soon to BC. SWP on the other hand, was out for some time before WotLK.

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The difficulty level of a specific aspect of a stunt does not make the actual stunt any harder.

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...

How difficult something is does not make it anymore difficult?

The original four horsemen took 6-7 weeks for death and taxes to get a world first on I believe. What was wrong with that?

I would love to see a boss that requires that much effort, coordination, and retention to defeat. I am not asking for Final Fantasy XI retarded bosses that take 24 hours to kill, but at least an instance that you can't full clear the first week in there.

Fifteen bosses in naxx. FIFTEEN. A first-week clear of an instance with 2 bosses would be acceptable. But a guild being able to get fifteen bosses down the first week of BC with no ramping up of gear requirements, or anything is a bit off.

Learning through SSC and TK you'd expect maybe 1-2 new boss kills a week if your guild was consistent. That felt like some good pacing. This doesn't.

I for one like challenges. The first guild I was in that killed Kael'thas spent almost two months on him dealing with attrition, summer vacations, gearing up, wipes, etc. When we finally downed him that was such a huge, huge, accomplishment for everyone there. I would like to go into a raid feeling like I am going to be challenged.

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The original four horsemen took 6-7 weeks for death and taxes to get a world first on I believe. What was wrong with that?

I would love to see a boss that requires that much effort, coordination, and retention to defeat. I am not asking for Final Fantasy XI retarded bosses that take 24 hours to kill, but at least an instance that you can't full clear the first week in there.

Fifteen bosses in naxx. FIFTEEN. A first-week clear of an instance with 2 bosses would be acceptable. But a guild being able to get fifteen bosses down the first week of BC with no ramping up of gear requirements, or anything is a bit off.

Learning through SSC and TK you'd expect maybe 1-2 new boss kills a week if your guild was consistent. That felt like some good pacing. This doesn't.

I for one like challenges. The first guild I was in that killed Kael'thas spent almost two months on him dealing with attrition, summer vacations, gearing up, wipes, etc. When we finally downed him that was such a huge, huge, accomplishment for everyone there. I would like to go into a raid feeling like I am going to be challenged.

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I concur with this. The first time we down Vashj or Kael it felt so good just because at that point everything just clicked and the fight was flawless. Granted, we spent like 1 or 2 month on it to down the bosses but it was so worth it to get that epic ring and all the guildies spent most of the night just talking about how the fight was so epic. Please don't that away. At the moment we're clearing through Naxx with a breeze, granted it is entry level so I'd expect that. But please please bring back the total coordination that is needed for later fights. These fights in Naxx requires no coordination at all pew pew few things and done collect epics isn't quite fun >_<.

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If you balance rogues, hunters, locks and mages to all do the same dps on target dummies, then what you find in a raid is that the ranged dps comes out on top because the rogue has to spend a lot of potential dps time on positioning and running out of fires.

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It is not so simple. Consider that a mage or warlock must press a button to cast a spell for every single point of damage they do. Now consider that the rogue gets a lot of "free damage" without button-presses with autoattack.

So, yes the melee may have to move between targets, but that is only one in a number of factors that generally address timing issues and how moving, casting, interacting with the environment, etc. can take away DPS time.

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If you balance rogues, hunters, locks and mages to all do the same dps on target dummies, then what you find in a raid is that the ranged dps comes out on top because the rogue has to spend a lot of potential dps time on positioning and running out of fires. This isn't true of every encounter, but it is true of a lot. (If there is an encounter where a rogue should shine, it's something like Patchwerk.) So rogue dps on a combat dummy probably needs to be higher so that net dps in a raid is about the same as other classes. Make sense?

And once again, if you are taking an inexperienced rogue in blues and PvP gear in a raid, then don't be surprised if expert Moonkin, Retadins, Fury warriors and Enhancement shammies (and all the other hybrids who will Suspect Something Is Up if I don't mention them) blast past him on the meters.

We're not sure if PvE rogue dps is too low. Some players clearly think it is. You can't just average out rogue dps across all WWS reports because you have no idea of the skill and gear involved without a lot of digging. Rogues are very sensitive to buffs and a lot of other factors. It's complicated and the solutions are tricky too. Just buffing rogue damage across the board could do bad things to PvP. Making them better now could make them way too good two tiers from now. These things take time sometimes.

We're also not going to keep anyone weak in PvE just because they are good in PvP or vice versa.

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All this talk about skill, I wish there were a better indicator of someone skill level besides "who gets the biggest number", then we could finally put this all to rest.

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If there is an encounter where a rogue should shine, it's something like Patchwerk.

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Saying this, when WWS's show rogues average 1000 dps less than other pure classes on this encounter is beyond frustrating. Averages are just that, averages. Every class have the same possible range of buffs, etc, yet rogues still show vastly less than other pure classes on an encounter even you say is designed best for them.

And the one or two examples of rogues near the top are HaT rogues taking advantage of a bug.

This even being looked at?

And what effect could adjusting glancing blows have on PvP?