World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> "Bring the player...", DPS, Raid Encounters

Sskzins

< Cadre Cola >

Akama

20. Re: "Bring the player...", DPS, Raid Encounte 12/03/2008 02:07:34 PM PST

Q u o t e:

You want the highest DPS in the sense that you look in LFG and see a mage and moonkin, in BC you go lol oomkin and invite the mage.

Your point is right.... but you looked for a warlock first before you brought the mage

Joecuel

< Convergence >

Greymane

21. Re: "Bring the player...", DPS, Raid Encounte 12/03/2008 02:08:23 PM PST

Q u o t e:

Without being mean, let me explain. enrage timmers are in the game for a very simple reason. not so you bring the best dps as enrage timmers are usually pretty forgivving. but, to make sure you BRING dps!

w/o enrage timmers you could bring 5 tanks and 20 healers and have a pretty easy time. (extreme)

Your point is moot; nobody would do that anyway.

Nejriel

Icecrown

22. Re: "Bring the player...", DPS, Raid Encounte 12/03/2008 02:57:27 PM PST

Q u o t e:
It feels like this is estimation is exactly correct. The competitiveness of the game is being more or less phased out, and I think blizzard is turning World of Warcraft into World of Socialnetworkcraft.

Ehhh... if anything the way it is now makes it more competitive. All the advantages/disadvantages based on class differences just becomes petitions to blizzard to change the class mechanics - that's a kind of competition I guess. If what bothers you is more to do with how challenging things are at the moment, that's a separate thing.

Anyway, here's more discussion and explanation (from today) posted somewhere else: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=13249185752&pageNo=2&sid=1#35

Crigily

< HJPU >

Chromaggus

23. Re: "Bring the player...", DPS, Raid Encounte 12/03/2008 02:57:37 PM PST

I really don't see the problem here. I have no problems with the bring the player not the class philosophy in theory.

Cruce

< Eternal >

Scarlet Crusade

24. Re: "Bring the player...", DPS, Raid Encounte 12/03/2008 02:59:14 PM PST

What gets me is that they say "bring the player" but don't change the fights in Naxx that require Mind Control (in the 25 man) and have Malygos require instant cast AoE healing that shaman and paladins do not have.

Rolling a gnome is like saying "I hate myself and I want you to hate me too."

Is your wit as sharp as your sword?
http://apirateiwasmeanttobe.ytmnd.com/

Crigily

< HJPU >

Chromaggus

25. Re: "Bring the player...", DPS, Raid Encounte 12/03/2008 03:00:54 PM PST

Q u o t e:
What gets me is that they say "bring the player" but don't change the fights in Naxx that require Mind Control (in the 25 man) and have Malygos require instant cast AoE healing that shaman and paladins do not have.

And therein lies the difference between theory and practice.

Zamm

< Eternal Evolution >

Quel'dorei

26. Re: "Bring the player...", DPS, Raid Encounte 12/03/2008 03:08:26 PM PST

Q u o t e:

I'm not so much focused on choices a guild would make in selecting DPS classes, but rather, blizzard's design goal for all DPS classes by either nerfs or buffs to make them all baselined. Why remove everything that is special about a specific class that makes them great and would certainly benefit the encounter by more than a difference of 1-5%?

Collectively, if all DPS classes are within 1-5% of each other (more or less), and collectively, you simply do not have the DPS required for the fight (overall raid DPS) then you are inherently forced to bring people that are geared/speced for the MOST DPS, excluding those who were previously in the encounter just to get it completed.

You really have me confused here. The blizzard aim is to have the DPS of all raiding DPS specs close enough that given two equally skilled and geared players you simply take the one you like the best.

There is meant to be a slight discrepancy between pure and hybrids to allow for the hybrids increased chance of bringing a usable raid buff. But given buffs not stacking the discrepancy is not so great that if the raid does not need any of the buffs the hybrid offers they are automatically excluded from the raid.

Now, obviously most raids are going to be made up from a range of players of differing skills and different gear. You are not going to see very many raids where the DPS is all within 5% of each other.

However, balance should mean that you simply get to pick your best 3 tanks, best 7 healers and best 15 DPS and go and raid something.

Ahh I can picture it now, 5000 retadins charging into battle, one moment later,

"HEAL ME FFS!",

"NO YOU HEAL ME NOOB". -sayk

Arucity

< Edge of Madness >

Frostwolf

27. Re: "Bring the player...", DPS, Raid Encounte 12/03/2008 03:10:40 PM PST

I'm quite interested to see how far casuals will get with this new system.

Secretly, I'm Calsifer the mage :D

Joecuel

< Convergence >

Greymane

28. Re: "Bring the player...", DPS, Raid Encounte 12/03/2008 03:12:05 PM PST

One of the concerns (I didn't want to bring up in the OP) was the embracing of mediocrity that this design philosophy is creating.

It's like handing out a trophy to everyone that participated instead of just to the winners.

Joecuel

< Convergence >

Greymane

29. Re: "Bring the player...", DPS, Raid Encounte 12/03/2008 03:13:39 PM PST

Q u o t e:

You really have me confused here. The blizzard aim is to have the DPS of all raiding DPS specs close enough that given two equally skilled and geared players you simply take the one you like the best.

There is meant to be a slight discrepancy between pure and hybrids to allow for the hybrids increased chance of bringing a usable raid buff. But given buffs not stacking the discrepancy is not so great that if the raid does not need any of the buffs the hybrid offers they are automatically excluded from the raid.

Now, obviously most raids are going to be made up from a range of players of differing skills and different gear. You are not going to see very many raids where the DPS is all within 5% of each other.

However, balance should mean that you simply get to pick your best 3 tanks, best 7 healers and best 15 DPS and go and raid something.

But that's what blizzard wants; all DPS within 5% of each other.

Arucity

< Edge of Madness >

Frostwolf

30. Re: "Bring the player...", DPS, Raid Encounte 12/03/2008 03:15:43 PM PST

Q u o t e:
One of the concerns (I didn't want to bring up in the OP) was the embracing of mediocrity that this design philosophy is creating.

It's like handing out a trophy to everyone that participated instead of just to the winners.

Except that you can't actually beat the game, since it never ends.

Secretly, I'm Calsifer the mage :D

Captnfalcon

< Immortalis Night >

Kilrogg

31. Re: "Bring the player...", DPS, Raid Encounte 12/03/2008 03:17:00 PM PST

Q u o t e:

It feels like this is estimation is exactly correct. The competitiveness of the game is being more or less phased out, and I think blizzard is turning World of Warcraft into World of Socialnetworkcraft.

what competitveness? "be a mage or you don't dps in my raids" isn't competitive.
"be good at what you do and you dps in my raids" is competitive.

No, this time, we won't even return to where we were before. This time, we'll be worse than before. We aren't getting nerfed to the ground. We are getting nerfed BELOW the ground.

Sylari

< We Didnt Start the F… >

Twisting Nether

32. Re: "Bring the player...", DPS, Raid Encounte 12/03/2008 03:18:48 PM PST

The concept itself is wonderful, but unfortunately there are problems with it's implementation right now.

Tychlomus

< Legions of Honor >

Skywall

33. Re: "Bring the player...", DPS, Raid Encounte 12/03/2008 03:24:13 PM PST

Q u o t e:
It feels like this is estimation is exactly correct. The competitiveness of the game is being more or less phased out, and I think blizzard is turning World of Warcraft into World of Socialnetworkcraft.

Just so long as it's World of Idonthavetogroupwithjackassescraft.

"You provoked it."
"Well, kinda, but--"
"You shouldn't provoke monsters, Elliot."

Joecuel

< Convergence >

Greymane

34. Re: "Bring the player...", DPS, Raid Encounte 12/03/2008 04:25:01 PM PST

Q u o t e:

what competitveness? "be a mage or you don't dps in my raids" isn't competitive.
"be good at what you do and you dps in my raids" is competitive.

It's not so much that, but there are/will be/were encounters that require that you bring your best dps, which is counter to the design philosophy.

Excludey

Blackwater Raiders

35. Re: "Bring the player...", DPS, Raid Encounte 12/03/2008 04:57:39 PM PST

Q u o t e:
It seems to me that with the kind of design philosophy that preaches equality among all dps classes, and reduces them to a common number element (by either buffing or nerfing lower or higher numbers respectively), that it seems pointless to create raid/boss encounters with enrage timers and other intentional 'accelerants' that compel raiders/guilds to bring the highest DPS possible when in fact, blizzard has intentionally stated that no class should be the highest DPS.

Does anyone else see a problem with this?

No CLASS should be the highest dps however the more skilled player will still be higher dps than the noob player. With this in mind and the fact that mages and hunters seem to be dominating the meters even in crap gear just by spamming ffb or a steady shot macro it leads me to believe that you are worried that once this is balanced your rl will see how bad you are and you won't have a raid spot.

Ghostcrawler

Blizzard Poster

36. Re: "Bring the player...", DPS, Raid Encounte 12/03/2008 05:17:31 PM PST

Q u o t e:
I am not sure what you are saying. If Blizz reached their stated goal (which I will boil down to equally skilled pure dps should have a slight advantage (5% or less) over equally skilled hybrids (i.e. good ret beats so-so rogue, etc.)), then I see no problem with DPS races and enrage timers. They've not met that goal yet, which I think even GC would admit. So far that's not a problem as all raid content available is tuned to be entry level. However if the class imbalances that currently exist persist when more challenging content is released and said content contains a hard-DPS timer, I for one will feel guitly (depsite being the raid leader and GM) about bringing myself to said hard-DPS timer, instead of another hunter/lock or DPS warrior.

Q u o t e:
Blizzard never stated that. Ever. They did say classes would be close, but they also specifically said rogues would top DPS by a small margin (at least on rogue friendly bosses). And with all classes close, classes wouldn't matter, just player (and their gear). There is no problem with the theory.

I wanted to quote these two because they said what I would say probably better than I would have.

Q u o t e:
Now, obviously most raids are going to be made up from a range of players of differing skills and different gear. You are not going to see very many raids where the DPS is all within 5% of each other.

However, balance should mean that you simply get to pick your best 3 tanks, best 7 healers and best 15 DPS and go and raid something.
________________________________________

But that's what blizzard wants; all DPS within 5% of each other.

You have to be a little careful if you sling this around. What we don’t want is for your class mechanics to hold you back if you are vying to do the best dps you can. We are not at all guaranteeing that every raid will end up with all the dps classes within 5% of each other. The biggest factor will be skill, followed by gear and then just random luck.

We know heroics and raids are a little easy right now, and we're okay with that. Consider:

1) If you're 80 already, you are a relatively hardcore player. Most WoW players are not 80 yet. If it's easy for you, it's not easy for everybody.

2) We want more players to see the content. Naxxramas and Malygos are cool! We want people to see them. Heck, we brought Naxx back in part because so few people had seen it.

3) Very few of the people who are saying WoW is EZ mode have done Satharion with 3 drakes yet. Give that a shot then get back to us. :)

4) Ulduar will be harder. It still might be do-able by more than the most elite 5% of players, but it will be a lot more challenging. And we'll continue to have "hard modes" that are even more challenging. We'll make sure some of these challenges offer appropriate rewards.

5) We knew we were messing with class balance quite a bit, so it's nice that things are a little easier right now. It gives the players time to learn the new spells and abilities and gives us a chance to see how things really work out in the actual game with thousands of people beating on the mechanics. We'll continue to make adjustments as necessary. It's an MMO. Things change over time.

Arucity

< Edge of Madness >

Frostwolf

37. Re: "Bring the player...", DPS, Raid Encounte 12/03/2008 05:21:21 PM PST

Q u o t e:
Q u o t e:
Blizzard never stated that. Ever. They did say classes would be close, but they also specifically said rogues would top DPS by a small margin (at least on rogue friendly bosses). And with all classes close, classes wouldn't matter, just player (and their gear). There is no problem with the theory.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I wanted to quote these two because they said what I would say probably better than I would have.

So why again are you not going to let mages compete with rogues for #1, along with hunters and warlocks? It really is horribly frustrating to have rolled a mage all those years ago and still have to play with this crap :(

[ Post edited by Arucity ]

Secretly, I'm Calsifer the mage :D

Bufferal

Tichondrius

39. Re: "Bring the player...", DPS, Raid Encounte 12/03/2008 05:31:48 PM PST

Q u o t e:

I wanted to quote these two because they said what I would say probably better than I would have.

You have to be a little careful if you sling this around. What we don’t want is for your class mechanics to hold you back if you are vying to do the best dps you can. We are not at all guaranteeing that every raid will end up with all the dps classes within 5% of each other. The biggest factor will be skill, followed by gear and then just random luck.

We know heroics and raids are a little easy right now, and we're okay with that. Consider:

1) If you're 80 already, you are a relatively hardcore player. Most WoW players are not 80 yet. If it's easy for you, it's not easy for everybody.

2) We want more players to see the content. Naxxramas and Malygos are cool! We want people to see them. Heck, we brought Naxx back in part because so few people had seen it.

3) Very few of the people who are saying WoW is EZ mode have done Satharion with 3 drakes yet. Give that a shot then get back to us. :)

4) Ulduar will be harder. It still might be do-able by more than the most elite 5% of players, but it will be a lot more challenging. And we'll continue to have "hard modes" that are even more challenging. We'll make sure some of these challenges offer appropriate rewards.

5) We knew we were messing with class balance quite a bit, so it's nice that things are a little easier right now. It gives the players time to learn the new spells and abilities and gives us a chance to see how things really work out in the actual game with thousands of people beating on the mechanics. We'll continue to make adjustments as necessary. It's an MMO. Things change over time.

more players "seeing" the content is a noble goal indeed.

kind of hard to "see" content when you're so focused on green health bars all the time...

[ Post edited by Bufferal ]

Forum > CLASS ROLES > DAMAGE DEALING