World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> "Bring The Player, Not The Class."

Festorfamine

Undermine

20. Re: "Bring The Player, Not The Class." 12/03/2008 08:38:25 AM PST

cant believe no pally said it yet "TO THE GROUND BABY"

Raugh

< OP >

Blackrock

21. Re: "Bring The Player, Not The Class." 12/03/2008 08:42:16 AM PST

It was kind of misleading to begin with. Because you need basic raid comp to begin with.

Much as you love rogue #1 you really need [Insert tank/healer/whatever].

Then some fights punish melee, others ranged. Some fights punish cast classes, and so forth. Those classes will likely only be brought in when the encounter is outgeared and trivial.

"bring the player, not the class" was always just forum fluff to make people shut the hell up. Nothings really changed except that tanking is actually viably enjoyable playstyle now.

Anathalt

< On a Friday Night >

Windrunner

22. Re: "Bring The Player, Not The Class." 12/03/2008 09:31:05 AM PST

Q u o t e:
you are
KIDDING
RIGHT?

...

they are bad on promises and bad on balance....

The DPS numbers you're quoting are a large improvement on DPS balance over BC.

Anathalt

< On a Friday Night >

Windrunner

23. Re: "Bring The Player, Not The Class." 12/03/2008 09:36:12 AM PST

Q u o t e:
"bring the player, not the class" was always just forum fluff to make people shut the hell up. Nothings really changed except that tanking is actually viably enjoyable playstyle now.

I think BPNC is a reality for tanking at present. Have you heard of a tank getting benched for Naxx because he was the wrong class? I haven't, tanks are very close to equal in tanking ability.

It's mostly not a reality for DPS, and it's not even close to true for healers.

Lockslyn

< Dark Legion >

Terokkar

24. Re: "Bring The Player, Not The Class." 12/03/2008 09:37:51 AM PST

Q u o t e:

Because then it would be a stupid encounter. It was already dumbed down enough for the 10 man version to have "orbs" since that would be silly to require 2 Priests for a 10 man run. However, for a 25 man group not having 2 Priests, of any spec combo, to do the mind controlling is silly.

Sure my raid doesn't currently bring Resto Shaman, but we at least still have 2 Shaman in the raid.

Stop crying over something that requires no crying over. It's nearly identical to the original fight, still requiring the same basic concepts. It would be even more worthless of an encounter/raid instance if had no relativeness to the original.

We've run plenty of 25-mans with one Priest...or less. Our guild happens to be heavy on Holy Pallies, and so if a Priest or two can't log in one night, what are we supposed to do?

Riaal

Mal'Ganis

25. Re: "Bring The Player, Not The Class." 12/03/2008 09:43:51 AM PST

Q u o t e:

We've run plenty of 25-mans with one Priest...or less. Our guild happens to be heavy on Holy Pallies, and so if a Priest or two can't log in one night, what are we supposed to do?

Recruit more Priests or have a healer switch classes.

Was that a question that really needed to be asked?

You can't take everything so literal and 100% true to the point.

You still want a balanced raid composition that's necessary to complete the encounters Blizzard gives us.

Anathalt

< On a Friday Night >

Windrunner

26. Re: "Bring The Player, Not The Class." 12/03/2008 09:46:34 AM PST

Q u o t e:
You still want a balanced raid composition that's necessary to complete the encounters Blizzard gives us.

Indeed, BPNC is not even a stated goal of the developers when it comes to healers. They like the niche healing model.

Shanija

< Clarity >

Daggerspine

27. Re: "Bring The Player, Not The Class." 12/03/2008 09:46:40 AM PST

Q u o t e:

So in a 10 or 25 man raid its a stretch to bring a priest?

There are ten classes per faction now, right? So you'd expect one of each in a raid. It's not too far out to suppose that now and then you won't have a priest in the 10, and pre-BC it was reasonably common to have only one or, sometimes, none of a particular class turn up to 25s due to chance.

With ten classes you'd expect two and a half of each in a raid, and I don't think it's too unreasonable to suppose that one or none might show up.

Orcishpet

Dalaran

28. Re: "Bring The Player, Not The Class." 12/03/2008 09:47:13 AM PST

Q u o t e:

We've run plenty of 25-mans with one Priest...or less. Our guild happens to be heavy on Holy Pallies, and so if a Priest or two can't log in one night, what are we supposed to do?

Exactly! Our guilds are heavy on holy pallies too and bacuase alot of the priests changed to another class because it wasn't fun to play. And you'd need at least 2 priests to MC the guys or else you can't clear Naxx so what gives. This isn't a healer QQ at all its more of a design QQ, take it for what it is worth.

Anathalt

< On a Friday Night >

Windrunner

29. Re: "Bring The Player, Not The Class." 12/03/2008 09:51:21 AM PST

Q u o t e:
Exactly! Our guilds are heavy on holy pallies too and bacuase alot of the priests changed to another class because it wasn't fun to play. And you'd need at least 2 priests to MC the guys or else you can't clear Naxx so what gives. This isn't a healer QQ at all its more of a design QQ, take it for what it is worth.

This is weird. Your priests decided they weren't having fun and decided to roll...holy paladins? I thought we were the consensus "least fun healer", that pally healing was "boring", etc etc etc.

Anyway, the reason you need priests for this fight is that you needed them when it was designed back in the day, and they wanted to change as little as they could. New fight designs will not be doing this sort of thing, GC has acknowledged that requiring 2 priests is stretching it.

Orcishpet

Dalaran

30. Re: "Bring The Player, Not The Class." 12/03/2008 09:52:07 AM PST

Q u o t e:

This is weird. Your priests decided they weren't having fun and decided to roll...holy paladins? I thought we were the consensus "least fun healer", that pally healing was "boring", etc etc etc.

Anyway, the reason you need priests for this fight is that you needed them when it was designed back in the day, and they wanted to change as little as they could. New fight designs will not be doing this sort of thing, GC has acknowledged that requiring 2 priests is stretching it.

No they weren't having fun so they rolled DK >_<.

Tyena

< Casually Serious >

Emerald Dream

31. Re: "Bring The Player, Not The Class." 12/03/2008 09:52:34 AM PST

Q u o t e:

This is weird. Your priests decided they weren't having fun and decided to roll...holy paladins? I thought we were the consensus "least fun healer", that pally healing was "boring", etc etc etc.

I think the poster just said that priests had rerolled. The holy paladins hadn't so they had more of them.

"Holy Priests are gap fillers" Ghostcrawler

Lockslyn

< Dark Legion >

Terokkar

32. Re: "Bring The Player, Not The Class." 12/03/2008 09:54:11 AM PST

Q u o t e:

Recruit more Priests or have a healer switch classes.

Was that a question that really needed to be asked?

You can't take everything so literal and 100% true to the point.

You still want a balanced raid composition that's necessary to complete the encounters Blizzard gives us.

When the answer to a question is essentially to "re-roll" or "get someone else", then somewhere there is a major failure in the system if any sort of balance is really your goal.

We don't recruit more Priests because they are hard to recruit and so we may not get the kind of people we want (skill-wise, but mostly socially), and because we are friends and we don't want to force others out. Sure we advance more slowly without 100% optimal raid composition, but there are more important things than being the fastest.

We should bring more Priests because we have Priests available who want to go, not because it is mandated. If Priests are not available, we should be able to bring other healers and have a reasonable expectation of success, even if it is not ideal. Is that really such a big stretch? Is it really fair to keep making someone sit out their preferred char in order to roll up another class in the same role just because Blizzard dictates it? That's not a good way to balance a game.

In the case of Razuviuos, Priest Mind Control should be the BETTER option, but there should still be ways of doing it without a certain minimum number of Priests in your group.

Anathalt

< On a Friday Night >

Windrunner

33. Re: "Bring The Player, Not The Class." 12/03/2008 09:57:12 AM PST

Q u o t e:
I think the poster just said that priests had rerolled. The holy paladins hadn't so they had more of them.

Gotcha. That makes more sense ^_^

Holy priests before ProM and CoH were not all that fun, either. Those buttons are neato.

Tyena

< Casually Serious >

Emerald Dream

34. Re: "Bring The Player, Not The Class." 12/03/2008 09:58:37 AM PST

Q u o t e:

In the case of Razuviuos, Priest Mind Control should be the BETTER option, but there should still be ways of doing it without a certain minimum number of Priests in your group.

This can't be argued with. No encounter should be dependent on the presence of 1 class - especially in 10 man but also 25 man. There should be a way to finish the event without that particular class - it may be sum-optimal - but it can be done.

Sort of like the demon boss in Kharzhan - having a SOC spamming warlock was win. However, if you didn't have one you could still manage to complete the event.

"Holy Priests are gap fillers" Ghostcrawler

Ghostcrawler

Blizzard Poster

35. Re: "Bring The Player, Not The Class." 12/03/2008 10:03:17 AM PST

Q u o t e:
Come on. Be honest now. Are you guys over at Blizzard kicking yourself yet for saying that?

No, of course not. I'm thrilled that so many players got the message loud and clear. It must have been a half-decent soundbite. :)

Q u o t e:
Every single thread it gets quoted. Every time one class recognizes the tiniest of differences, the tiniest of advantages to another class, and out comes the quote along with demands for immediate buffs/nerfs to bring about 'equality'.

Yep, that happens. The same thing happens when a hybrid class fails to out dps a pure dps class (or even more likely, quotes a wws parse on a run in which they weren't even involved). One of the quirks I have noticed about the WoW forums is often (though certainly not in every case) the people shouting the loudest are not the ones directly affected, but the ones who have heard something second or third hand.

Q u o t e:
Am I the only one who thinks this phrase is getting trotted out entirely too much? That it's being too broadly interpreted? I mean, where's the line? Can I sit here and insist that my 5 DPS class group be a viable heroic composition? Insist on success for my tank-less 25 man?

I would mention some less extreme examples, but they've all really been suggested. I can't even parody or satirize them, cause people are actually making ridiculous demands about bringing all of one healing class to a 25 man and similar crap.

Blizzard couldn't have truly meant this the way people are taking it, could they?

We don't mean that you can select 10 or 25 random people and expect to succeed and thrive. The mantra is not "bring any player." The mantra is not "class is irrelevant." Instead, it means that the class (or spec) involved does not trump all other issues, which we felt was increasingly happening in BC.

We honestly heard from a lot of players (and experienced it ourselves) that a group might shelve a good rogue because bringing the shaman for WF was a better overall improvement for dps, even if the shaman was face-roller. That just sounds broken.

I think what happens is that players hear "Bring the player, not the class," and add to that "Well, I play my class flawlessly and have perfect gear," and conclude that any failure is because of the game mechanics and not their own skill or gear (and luck certainly plays a factor in any RPG too).

The intent is actually that when faced with who to invite to a 5, 10 or 25 player run that you can consider the player involved. You should never have to take a terrible priest over an excellent paladin just because the priest has some uber buff or required spell. If your guild has lots of paladin healers, then go run Naxx with them.

The emphasis on encounter design is more about execution, coordination or good old gear checks rather than "at this stage, a mage must cast Counterspell or the boss will wipe the raid."

When we are balancing numbers, we can assume that your group has +haste, +AP and +crit without you having to make sure that means a shaman, warrior and feral druid is with you.

Nightshroud

< Mirage >

Alleria

36. Re: "Bring The Player, Not The Class." 12/03/2008 10:06:15 AM PST

In before Odes cuts himself because he got a good response to this thread and not a Disc balance thread.

Modifying this field will update the Date/Time display on all World of Warcraft Forums when viewed from this computer.

Sopheea

< THE ALL MiGHTY >

Suramar

37. Re: "Bring The Player, Not The Class." 12/03/2008 10:17:27 AM PST

Q u o t e:

The intent is actually that when faced with who to invite to a 5, 10 or 25 player run that you can consider the player involved. You should never have to take a terrible priest over an excellent paladin just because the priest has some uber buff or required spell. If your guild has lots of paladin healers, then go run Naxx with them.

Just don't go into the Military Quarter.....

Skinflute

< Saga >

Drak'Tharon

38. Re: "Bring The Player, Not The Class." 12/03/2008 10:23:39 AM PST

If it's the player not the class, why is healing in naxx so heavily AE healing?

I read priest and druid's AE healing is getting nerfed but not goin to change Naxx so it will still be the same thing but increasingly harder to beat naxx and still requiring heavy AE healing unless you change naxx up too.

What would add skill is require the strategy of kiting possibly. Sophisticate the CC-ing involved. Other than throwing tons of AE dmg.

[ Post edited by Skinflute ]

Q u o t e:
I once told a girl I had herpes so I could get home in time to raid since I was going to be the only available tank for the night.

Holyshizadow

< Villains >

Azuremyst

39. Re: "Bring The Player, Not The Class." 12/03/2008 10:24:14 AM PST

Q u o t e:
In before Odes cuts himself because he got a good response to this thread and not a Disc balance thread.

hahahahahahahahaha

Forum > CLASS ROLES > HEALING