World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Healer Design Philosophy

Premise

< Oligarchy >

Bloodscalp

60. Re: Healer Design Philosophy - Why we QQ 12/06/2008 12:20:13 AM PST

Q u o t e:

Regarding homogenisation, it's important to note that while there's no specific dps class that is required, you still need to balance your raid out with an appropriate mix of classes. That is to say, not all combinations of classes are equal, you've got to look at the buffs, find the classes that work well together, and build a balanced raid. The intent, I believe, is for the same to be true of healers -- no specific healing class is required, but you've still got to balance things out a bit and bring a combination of healers that works well together. Some people appear to have taken a slightly nonlogical leap to believe that any raid makeup is viable -- that is, any healer should be interchangeable with any other healer. It's important that we understand that there's a difference between wanting this, and just wanting to make it a little easier to balance out a raid.

I think this is the most important thing for people to remember. I have seen a ton of posts that say, "If I brought 8 of this healer or 10 of this dps, we couldn't complete the raid/instance!" Do you know how hard that would be to make content difficult enough to challenge a well balanced group in order to account for every possible raid combo in the game, in additon to balancing 5 mans/10 mans/ and 25 mans on top of that? At some point, you need to understand, some encounters are going to really highlight your strengths, and some just aren't. Every encounter cannot take into account every aspect of your class. To me that separates the good players. The ones who can overcome the obstacles of their class or fights that do not favor them, tend to be the better players I want raiding beside me. Taking this aspect out of the game, takes the player out of the decision to bring someone to a raid as much as giving only certain classes overwhelmingly beneficial utility.

Embrace

Dragonblight

61. Re: Healer Design Philosophy - Why we QQ 12/06/2008 01:55:42 PM PST

Q u o t e:

I think this is the most important thing for people to remember. I have seen a ton of posts that say, "If I brought 8 of this healer or 10 of this dps, we couldn't complete the raid/instance!" Do you know how hard that would be to make content difficult enough to challenge a well balanced group in order to account for every possible raid combo in the game, in additon to balancing 5 mans/10 mans/ and 25 mans on top of that? At some point, you need to understand, some encounters are going to really highlight your strengths, and some just aren't. Every encounter cannot take into account every aspect of your class. To me that separates the good players. The ones who can overcome the obstacles of their class or fights that do not favor them, tend to be the better players I want raiding beside me. Taking this aspect out of the game, takes the player out of the decision to bring someone to a raid as much as giving only certain classes overwhelmingly beneficial utility.

Show me one single instance in the 71-80 game that challenges anyone but the healers. No encounters favor any of the healing classes, all encounters favor the tanks/DPS, and it's all by design.

I've said that it's fine that things are challenging for the healers. But they absolutely should not be challenging ONLY for the healers. That makes no sense whatsoever and Blizzard can not in any way defend that backwards design philosophy for only one small portion of the player base. It is undeniably a mindset that leads the game to be as difficult and annoying as possible for 20% of the players, while as easy and fun as possible for the other 80%. Again, no excuse for that. Make it hard for everyone, or don't. WotLK has made both tanking/DPS a joke, and the upcoming buffs to both show that Blizzard is really going to take that to the extreme.

Kachic

< The Clique >

Laughing Skull

62. Re: Healer Design Philosophy - Why we QQ 12/06/2008 04:09:11 PM PST

Did you want to be a face roller like the dps are? Did you want your skill cap dropped like tanks? Not only do I enjoy that my job is hard - I welcome and embrace it. And if they had made the healing classes like they did the new loldps and tanking I would have certainly found a new game by now. I don't want my job to be easier - I want a challenge. If healing was as easy as dps it would be so incredibly boring there wouldn't be any healers left.

Cherrileigh

< Liquid Courage >

Muradin

63. Re: Healer Design Philosophy - Why we QQ 12/06/2008 04:23:36 PM PST

Q u o t e:
Zero PVP viability (look at the beta, arena gear will NOT change things one bit).

All encounters designed entirely around healing.

Role design is opposite that of DPS/tanks.

Response? Buff DPS, simplify tanking further, more healing nerfs.

/sigh

QFT

I have a DK around the same lvl as my Druid. Healing i have to watch so much. My DK just load up and rock and roll.

It's Go Go.
Not Cry Cry.

Amingo

< Bluefrex >

Chromaggus

64. Re: Healer Design Philosophy - Why we QQ 12/06/2008 04:33:07 PM PST

The game should have been: tanks generate threat, DPS deals damage and returns mana to healers proportional to damage done, and healers heal tanks and DPS. Currently it's: tanks generate threat, DPS deals damage, and healers heal tanks and DPS and worry about their mana. I think that would have been interesting.

Mystal

< Ars Discordia >

Doomhammer

65. Re: Healer Design Philosophy - Why we QQ 12/06/2008 05:45:31 PM PST

Q u o t e:

Everyone has been saying that content is too easy. Just look at their response! They INCREASED damage for DPS classes even further and are still on their quest to NERF healing.

This is a silly statement. Healing and DPS have both gone up. Most DPS have had their jobs made more complicated in terms of more intricate rotations, more time spent watching for procs, etc.

Furthermore, from a PvE perspective it doesn't matter if DPS went up or down, since it's all relative to the health of mobs. Would it make you feel better if fights were longer? That would strain DPS mana, but also healer mana, so you'd still complain.

Patchwork

Mok'Nathal

66. Re: Healer Design Philosophy - Why we QQ 12/06/2008 06:08:10 PM PST

I don't mind the hard healing fights that much, but the pot nurf/regen nurf makes some fights a bit stupid.

Almost makes me think a dev was somewhere in the corner saying "hey, I have an idea, lets piss off the healers."

Kyokuji

Mug'thol

67. Re: Healer Design Philosophy - Why we QQ 12/06/2008 06:48:32 PM PST

Q u o t e:

Our issue is that tanking and various DPS specs were significantly overhauled to make them more fun, while the primary goal for us was not fun.. but rather to make things HARDER.

Pretty much sums up how I feel about things.

Sionzen

< Calamitous Intent >

Stormrage

68. Re: Healer Design Philosophy - Why we QQ 12/06/2008 08:41:22 PM PST

Q u o t e:

Show me one single instance in the 71-80 game that challenges anyone but the healers. No encounters favor any of the healing classes, all encounters favor the tanks/DPS, and it's all by design.

I've said that it's fine that things are challenging for the healers. But they absolutely should not be challenging ONLY for the healers. That makes no sense whatsoever and Blizzard can not in any way defend that backwards design philosophy for only one small portion of the player base. It is undeniably a mindset that leads the game to be as difficult and annoying as possible for 20% of the players, while as easy and fun as possible for the other 80%. Again, no excuse for that. Make it hard for everyone, or don't. WotLK has made both tanking/DPS a joke, and the upcoming buffs to both show that Blizzard is really going to take that to the extreme.

Any fight in several of the instances that have aoe spawns where I'm having to watch my aoe threat and guard my healer. Heroic Gundrak first boss with the snakes comes to mind, HoS Brann fight as well. Pallies and warriors have it easier on that front but still have to worry about mobs that are twitchy as heck on aggro. The prayer of mending changes are nice but I miss the extra threat of the old system, both as a tank and on my priest. Violet Hold is another issue of aoe threat and challenges to keep mobs away from the healer, especially when they teleport around me and stun me at the same time. Don't get me started on H UP with its gauntlet run. Good tanks make it easier for the healer, watch their back and vice versa

All that said, while I think some of it is gear and experience, the changes done to healers scares me a lot. Nerfing regen (after the spirit buff way back when), 1 pot per fight and now a CoH/WG cooldown is just insane, especially in blizzard's/playerbase's love of aoe speed runs/fights with oodles of raid damage.

Airdrid

< Crusaders of Chaos >

Misha

69. Re: Healer Design Philosophy - Why we QQ 12/07/2008 09:19:27 AM PST

Q u o t e:
The game should have been: tanks generate threat, DPS deals damage and returns mana to healers proportional to damage done, and healers heal tanks and DPS. Currently it's: tanks generate threat, DPS deals damage, and healers heal tanks and DPS and worry about their mana. I think that would have been interesting.

I think that's a rather neat idea with DPS returning mana to healers based on their damage done.

Ghostcrawler

Blizzard Poster

70. Re: Healer Design Philosophy - Why we QQ 12/07/2008 09:53:15 AM PST

I actually will read manifestos when they are thought-out and relatively unwhiny. IMO the OP falls into this camp. Complex problems sometimes require complex solutions. Where I get a little impatient is in the "here's how to fix our class" threads that involve changing every single spell and talent in the game. They aren't all that broken, and most of the time, we're talking about simple problems that can be fixed with more simple solutions.

But I digress.

One of the design goals in LK was to make tanking more fun and I daresay a little easier because it could be very challenging. I have tanked and healed A LOT on various classes and I feel pretty confident saying that tanking can be much harder than healing on some fights (on others it is reversed). Challenging the dps classes is harder, but you often see it in the form of berserk timers -- if the dps can't maximize their output, then the raid is going to wipe at no fault of the healers. Repositioning fights often tax the dps characters, though to be fair, they often tax the healers too.

I'm pretty happy with the current state of tanking, modulo polishing up a few bits here and there. Healing is something we have committed to taking a good hard look at now, so threads like this are helpful. Unlike tanking, it is a harder problem to solve, in part because some healers like the way healing works now just fine thank you, and risk walking away from it if we make very dramatic changes. The kinds of dramatic changes that get suggested a lot are things like causing damage to heal, having to heal through the main game window and not the health bars, having combo points and that sort of thing. You may say "That sounds awesome!" but many other players say "Yech."

Others say just having better UI, having more diverse spells to rely on, not having to time things so tightly, or having something to do besides healing will make their game more fun.

We do think the game can handle more diversity in healing mechanics than it can in tanking mechanics. In other words, it's okay for healers to have niches moreso than the tanks. This is largely because raids require more healers than tanks.

Zergas

< Epidemic >

Altar of Storms

71. Re: Healer Design Philosophy - Why we QQ 12/07/2008 09:56:12 AM PST

first

Dirtyscab

Ursin

72. Re: Healer Design Philosophy - Why we QQ 12/07/2008 10:04:18 AM PST

Q u o t e:
Our issue is that tanking and various DPS specs were significantly overhauled to make them more fun

I think tanking and DPS are MUCH less fun now. With tanks causing insane threat, nobody needs to worry about it anymore. It's impossible to pull aggro off a tank with half a brain. It's like when ret paladins had infinite mana for a little while, what's the point in having it if it's not a factor in anything?

Since tanks don't have to fight for threat anymore, there really isn't any challenge to being a tank. They're essentially a DPSer designated to wear heavier armor and get beat on. For DPSers it's even easier. Now all it is is keeping your rotation up. No more having to watch threat while managing your proper rotation, which was the only challenge in existence for DPS.

I've found myself holy now, after hating holy spec for the past 3 or 4 years. Healing is the only role now that requires any thought or challenge. Since threat was never really an issue for healers except non-paladin healers in a select few cases, they're the only ones that haven't been hit by this effort to make wow an easy casual player's game.

Formerly known as Pointdexter.

Héro

Thrall

73. Re: Healer Design Philosophy - Why we QQ 12/07/2008 10:26:14 AM PST

This is an excellent post by the OP. It's just way more fun to play my hunter than my priest. I remember healing Grobbulus and at the end I realised I was basically staring at health bars all fight long.

And Sapphiron......don't get me started..

I'm not arrogant , I'm just better than you.
...............___@@@__
......_____//____?____\______
----o------FORUM-POLICE----@)
-----`--(@)=====+====(@)-----

Dipmeinbeer

Kargath

74. Re: Healer Design Philosophy - Why we QQ 12/07/2008 10:32:33 AM PST

Q u o t e:

Others say just having better UI, having more diverse spells to rely on, not having to time things so tightly, or having something to do besides healing will make their game more fun.

PLEASE!

Cassiira

< Infernal Affairs >

Moonrunner

75. Re: Healer Design Philosophy - Why we QQ 12/07/2008 10:49:36 AM PST

Q u o t e:
Our issue is that tanking and various DPS specs were significantly overhauled to make them more fun, while the primary goal for us was not fun.. but rather to make things HARDER.

The reason I'm playing a healer is for the challenge of it. Healing being "hard" is what makes it fun for me. In that respect, nothing but 3 drake Sartharion has been particularly fun so far in WotLK. There have been a lot of changes I've liked to my class (a better LHW, for one) and heroics are more fun now. But all of these new tools from all classes, don't really seem to mesh well together in 25 mans, causing them to be rather boring. The tools available to healers right now, are just so much stronger than the difficulty of the encounters, They lose a lot of their luster and the fights are less fun as a result.

A lot of AP - Plenty of HR - Tons of Crit - Balls Deep Armor Pen.
Paisy is my forums apprentice. Be less jealous.

Nymphele

< Dark Legion >

Terokkar

76. Re: Healer Design Philosophy - Why we QQ 12/07/2008 11:26:53 AM PST

The problem is the basic philosophy of encounter design. Overwhelmingly it is don't die so you can then kill. Since healers can keep everyone alive and thus eventually be able to win the fight, to make things difficult naturally lands in the laps of making things harder for healers.

Even when the responsibility is put on the DPS--don't stand in the fire/cleave, free the trapped person by damaging whatever holds them--ultimately it is the healer who has to make up for it if the DPSers fail.

Maybe if we had more fights where success/failure was NOT synonymous with prevention of dying, some pressure could be taken off healers. For example, imagine a boss who didn't hit very hard and so required little healing, but then either had a timer of some kind or a regen rate that had to be overcome. That design isn't perfect since it could essentially become a gear check, but that is an idea of a different kind of mechanic other than constant "stop them from killing us so that we can eventually kill them" mindset.

Rebecka

< Nemesis >

Lothar

77. Re: Healer Design Philosophy - Why we QQ 12/07/2008 11:30:40 AM PST

Q u o t e:

We do think the game can handle more diversity in healing mechanics than it can in tanking mechanics. In other words, it's okay for healers to have niches moreso than the tanks. This is largely because raids require more healers than tanks.

There's 0-1 more healer than tank in the average 10-man. If encounters will be brutal without one class of healer, it's going to stink for 10-man-focused guilds.

"It's a brand new me; I got no remorse / Now the water's rising but I know the course / I'm gonna shock the world, gonna show Bad Horse / It's a brand new day"

Lyrik

< Blood Red Skies >

Uldaman

78. Re: Healer Design Philosophy - Why we QQ 12/07/2008 11:50:25 AM PST

Q u o t e:

There's 0-1 more healer than tank in the average 10-man. If encounters will be brutal without one class of healer, it's going to stink for 10-man-focused guilds.

QFT

My guild is going to be one of those small guilds that gets smacked with this issue. Like the WG and coh cd nerfs. We were planning on running with a druid and pally healer and I was going to be covering the brunt of the ae damage.. what am I supposed to do wih a 6s cd to my ae heal? Back to spamming lifebloom on everyone when the devs specifically nerfed the crap out of it to prevent that kind of thing?

There's no reason for guilds to be so limited and force us to run 3 healers and slow down our progression or force me or our pally healer to run something else so we can pick up a shammy or priest instead.

You are a nation of peeny-weeny, piffling, piccolini, piddly-diddly, pooft!

Pfft!

Tanoshii

Gorgonnash

79. Re: Healer Design Philosophy - Why we QQ 12/07/2008 12:03:14 PM PST

Q u o t e:
We do think the game can handle more diversity in healing mechanics than it can in tanking mechanics. In other words, it's okay for healers to have niches moreso than the tanks. This is largely because raids require more healers than tanks.

Then why don't holy priests get a real niche? On beta it was supposed to be AoE healing, now that's being taken away to give to shaman only. No one wants to bring a class that is 2nd best at everything to a progression raid.

Forum > CLASS ROLES > HEALING