---

Q u o t e:


Actually,
using my Aura, debuffing Crusader, buffing with blessings do not drop my DPS - which was my point, so my comparsion is just fine.

---

You compared the in combat use of seals and heals with the shaman buffs, so no, it wasn't fine.

Of course your buffs shouldn't drop your dps, they are buffs, same as the shamans, but when you both use your other utilities, of course that the dps will suffer, and the dps does suffer for both of you.

---

Q u o t e:


This was fixed long ago unless the issue has returned. The DPS is calculated by the damage done to the mob only.

---

Has it been?

---

Q u o t e:
I guess, if by "utility" you simply mean ability to heal / brez. What about DPS Warrior Utility? What about Mage Utility or Hunter?

---

Mage utility consist solely of the spell crit buff. Mages provide nothing else for combat abilities.

Warriors are higher than the rest of the hybreds for some reason.

---

Q u o t e:


Thats crowd control, crowd control is crowd control and it may or may not affect your dps depending on how many times you need to trap / sheep.

I would also call warriors debuffs on the target and their shouts a utility, same with rogue poisons and debuffs, mages mana restore with elem or the crit buff or the stacking debuffs.

You can look at it both ways, no point in continuing this.

---

Agreed. I am not argueing against a ret PvE damage buff. I am saying that using your non DPS abilities should and does lower your DPS.

---

Q u o t e:


You compared the in combat use of seals and heals with the shaman buffs, so no, it wasn't fine.

Of course your buffs shouldn't drop your dps, they are buffs, same as the shamans, but when you both use your other utilities, of course that the dps will suffer, and the dps does suffer for both of you.

---

My point, since you still don't seem to be able to grasp it, is that when each class only uses their combat utility, offensive utility - the DPS does not suffer.

When hybrids start using defensive utility however, that changes..if we want to argue if Ret aura and Bloodlust are not Utility - then it's a different argument alltogether.

Defensive Utility != Offensive Utility != Passive Utility != Active Utility

Thanks for putting this list together. More interesting and comprehensive than the top 50 thread.

I think we can all agree that elemental shaman are in a world of hurt. Last place by a big margin.

More controversial subjects:

If Rets are coming in second to last among dps specs vs a stationary undead mob, that's a really bad sign for that spec.

Rogues shouldn't be where they appear to be on this fight either.

---

Q u o t e:


Has it been?

---

Supposedly yes. But if I were you I would head to either the pally forums or retpaladin.com and double check.

---

Q u o t e:
DPS Comparison of all specs.

---

Think you missed some. Since I don't believe "warlock" is a spec.

Don't worry about rogues. With the Master Poisoner bug they currently provide much more to the raid than anyone else, so their low damage output is justified!

/sarcasm

---

Q u o t e:
Here is a link to the spreadsheet containing the data on the top 15 WSS reports for Patchwerk excluding all duplicate reports and excluding a parse that had a feral druid with 11.4k dps in bear form.

http://rapidshare.com/files/169857805/ComprehensiveDPSComparison.xlsx

Average DPS for all DPS specs in the top 15 follows. The number in brackets is the amount of that spec present in the parses.

BM Hunters: 5112.90 (31)
Surv. Hunters: 4128 (1)
MM Hunters: 4704.38 (8)
Mages: 4742.57 (30) Every mage was Frostfire spec
Combat Rogues: 3994.87 (23)
Mut Rogues: 4225.77 (13)
HAT Rogues: 4103 (1)
Warlocks: 4454.06 (36)
MS Warriors: 4252 (4)
Fury Warriors: 4441.50 (14)
Moonkin: 4244.60 (10)
Feral Druids: 4351.50 (4)
S. Priests: 4058.29 (21)
Enh Shaman: 4431.00 (17)
Ele Shaman: 3322.85 (13)
Ret. Paladin: 3915 (14)
Death Knights: 3770.93 (14) I am fairly sure a large amount of these death knight were not DPS specced.

Comparison of the pure DPS classes:
Hunters: 4648.43
Rogues: 4107.88
Mages: 4742.57
Warlocks 4454.06

DPS Ranges of all DPS specs:
BM Hunters: 6462 - 3030 (#@*#ing retard didn't even have a pet)
MM Hunters: 5345 - 4096
Mages: 6290 - 3435
C. Rogues: 4778 - 2995
Mut Rogues: 4592 - 3318
Warlocks: 5736 - 3046
MS Warriors: 4820 - 3760
Fury Warriors: 5279 - 3748
Moonkins: 5142 - 3331
Feral Druids: 5212 - 3677
S. Priests: 4575 - 3260
Enh Shaman: 4833 - 3893
Ele Shaman: 3740 - 2504
Ret. Paladins: 4546 - 3185
Death Knights: 4397 - 3179

I don't know how things should be balanced out, but right now, as of every top WWS parse, there are some classes that are in a horrible spot and I am surprised they are getting invited to any raids.

---

Not that this really matters... but why is it that you listed out the different specs of each class other than mage and warlock?

---

Q u o t e:
Not that this really matters... but why is it that you listed out the different specs of each class other than mage and warlock?

---

First grouping he states that all mages were frostfire.

afflic vs. destro differences are a myth!

BM Hunters: 5112.90 (31)
Mages: 4742.57 (30) Every mage was Frostfire spec
MM Hunters: 4704.38 (8)
Warlocks: 4454.06 (36)
Fury Warriors: 4441.50 (14)
Enh Shaman: 4431.00 (17)
Feral Druids: 4351.50 (4)
MS Warriors: 4252 (4)
Moonkin: 4244.60 (10)
Mut Rogues: 4225.77 (13)
Surv. Hunters: 4128 (1)
HAT Rogues: 4103 (1)
S. Priests: 4058.29 (21)
Combat Rogues: 3994.87 (23)
Ret. Paladin: 3915 (14)
Death Knights: 3770.93 (14) I am fairly sure a large amount of these death knight were not DPS specced.
Ele Shaman: 3322.85 (13)


I honestly don't think there are enough data points here. But if you want conclusions, then it appears that rogues and elementals need a huge buff. rets and spriests could use a smaller buff, along with some much needed bug fixes. DKs I'm not sure about given the qualifier.

Is Patchwerk the only boss in the entire game that has no movement and no threat at all?

If it is, I don't know how representative the damage chart is. I..e. melee can still hit if there is movement, but casters with long casting time cannot and their dps will suffer significantly.

I want to know how Blizzard simulate DPS, do they do it on dummy like Patchwerk or a typical boss that requires certain movement and threat control?

All of these arguments are pretty ridiculous overall.... I do not agree that a hybrid class should at any time do more DPS than a pure DPS class. The only time that this should happen is when there is a hybrid outgears a dps class greatly. When each and everyone of us picked our class we knew why we were picking it, I picked warlock because it was a pure DPS class. A paladin will chose his class because of the utility he has to be able to handle multiple situations. A warrior chose his class because throughout MMO history his role has normally been to tank.

Pure DPS classes in most cases do not bring a whole lot of "Utility" to a raid encounter, we were chose to come for 1 reason and 1 reason only... TO CAUSE DAMAGE. We were not chosen to buff other classes, we were not chosen to heal the party or raid. Yes a mage can sheep as a form of CC a Rogue can sap and in some cases Warlocks can use banish in demon and elemental encounters. But other than those cases what other utility can we bring?

Anyone arguing that a Warrior, Shaman, DK, Paladin, Druid, Priest should be topping DPS meters should go back to the character select screen and read the description of your class. I personally have no issues being at the bottom of the DPS charts when it comes other DPS classes, at least I know that I am doing my job. I am not ok if I get out DPS'd by a UTILITY class.

The biggest DPS balance issue has stemming from PVP and Arena, this is where blizzard screwed up big time. If people want balance they should make WoW a 1 class game that way everyone is the same, other than that you will never be able to balance this game.

You may all flame me now.

---

Q u o t e:
When each and everyone of us picked our class we knew why we were picking it, I picked warlock because it was a pure DPS class.

...

we were chose to come for 1 reason and 1 reason only... TO CAUSE DAMAGE. We were not chosen to buff other classes

---

You picked your toon prior to TBC. So either you were stupid, or your point is illogical.

---

Q u o t e:
All of these arguments are pretty ridiculous overall.... I do not agree that a hybrid class should at any time do more DPS than a pure DPS class.

You may all flame me now.

---

Luckily, no one gives a crap what you think.

---

Q u o t e:
Hi.

Thanks for the numbers and the analyses. We have pointy heads and we like numbers. Numbers from players actually out experiencing the content are particularly valuable because they expose what you are actually doing as opposed to what we expect you to do.

Please do keep in mind that there is going to be so much variation in player skill that we can't balance solely around those numbers. Plus, every time a bug crops up (Master Poisoner was a good one recently) the numbers can get skewed, and of course we all tend to exploit those bugs when they happen. We don't want to make fundamental balance adjustments to problems that will go away once bugs get fixed.

We do however want to continue to make balance adjustments to bring the various classes and specs into parity.

Data are wonderful. Just resist the urge to over-analyze small data sets.

---

Thanks for the input GC =)
I am seeing similar outcomes in dps for my raids too though