So I ran sarth 25 with another unholy dk last night, and much to my surprise, it turns out that his Ebon Plagues either overwrote mine or just wouldnt let me apply mine at all. I understand that mobs can't have the debuff from two, but at the very least they should still apply without having an effect, as this has a major impact on the damage that any but one of the DK's in the group is going to do, if they are Unholy, at least. In fact it makes it totally pointless to bring more than one Unholy DK at all.

@ the people who I know will say "YOU SHOULD JUST RESPEC IF YOU WANNA DPS!".... No. It should work like it's supposed to.

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Q u o t e:
So I ran sarth 25 with another unholy dk last night, and much to my surprise, it turns out that his Ebon Plagues either overwrote mine or just wouldnt let me apply mine at all. I understand that mobs can't have the debuff from two, but at the very least they should still apply without having an effect, as this has a major impact on the damage that any but one of the DK's in the group is going to do, if they are Unholy, at least. In fact it makes it totally pointless to bring more than one Unholy DK at all.

@ the people who I know will say "YOU SHOULD JUST RESPEC IF YOU WANNA DPS!".... No. It should work like it's supposed to.

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You benifit from each others diseases...............................................................................

I can say that they used to but I have no idea how it works now on live.

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Q u o t e:
Try this. let him be unholy. You go blood. Spam nothing but heart strike and death strike. Top the damage and healing metters atthe same time. Oh and when the tank is getting a bit low you can mark the boss and hysteria yourself to get that self heroism after heroism is popped. Learn how your class works with other s of its spec.

If hes unholy and beating you and you feel that your application of diseases is not working go blood or frost and make your mark abuseing HIS diseases and spent talent points.

If it is a fellow guildie then have a chat on vent with him about his rotation and your rotations. You to working together can roll just about any other class in damage if you are blood and unholy.

Raids are about coordination and cooperation. They are not about damage meters. That's why the meters are a mod and not in the standard UI. Once you are on farmable content then you can start wagging the ol' e-peen around saying what you want.

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How about you read his post and answer the question he asked before you waste your time writing out all that...

I've never specced unholy, but if it's working like you are describing, then this is probably just another side-effect of the buff/debuff system. I would open an in-game ticket just to get it on record and post this thread in the bug reports forum. once enough unholy's do the same they will set it to where you get the benefit, either from the other guys' or yours.

Clearly not working as intended, but its a new raid buff system, have patience.

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Q u o t e:
Try this. let him be unholy. You go blood. Spam nothing but heart strike and death strike. Top the damage and healing metters atthe same time. Oh and when the tank is getting a bit low you can mark the boss and hysteria yourself to get that self heroism after heroism is popped. Learn how your class works with other s of its spec.

If hes unholy and beating you and you feel that your application of diseases is not working go blood or frost and make your mark abuseing HIS diseases and spent talent points.

If it is a fellow guildie then have a chat on vent with him about his rotation and your rotations. You to working together can roll just about any other class in damage if you are blood and unholy.

Raids are about coordination and cooperation. They are not about damage meters. That's why the meters are a mod and not in the standard UI. Once you are on farmable content then you can start wagging the ol' e-peen around saying what you want.

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You've completely missed the point.

If there are two unholy death knights, only one of them will get a 3 disease modifier to their damage. The other will be stuck at two.

Warlocks have this same problem with shadow embrace.

Essentially the first person to get ebon plague up will keep it and no other death knight can use it as a disease modifier.

Paladin judgment debuffs seem a little wasted, too, if you bring more than 2 paladins.

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Q u o t e:
There are a few cases where classes or specs with the same debuff don't provide equal benefit to everyone. While we don't want the actual debuff to stack, we also don't want to penalize players for not having the benefit or get into a race for who can get the debuff up first. Unfortunately it's not a trivial problem to resolve or we already would have done so, but it is something we want to get fixed.

In the meantime, if your dps is suffering beyond what you can endure, you do have the option of going Blood or Frost.

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It pleases me enough to know you're working with the issue for warlocks and death knights.

In the mean time I have no problem going frost so our resident unholy DK can continue to rock out.

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Q u o t e:
There are a few cases where classes or specs with the same debuff don't provide equal benefit to everyone. While we don't want the actual debuff to stack, we also don't want to penalize players for not having the benefit or get into a race for who can get the debuff up first. Unfortunately it's not a trivial problem to resolve or we already would have done so, but it is something we want to get fixed.

In the meantime, if your dps is suffering beyond what you can endure, you do have the option of going Blood or Frost.

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Easy fix: Change the ebon plaguebringer to add a second non-disease debuff to the target, just like heart of the crusader does. Make crypt fever the third disease, and make it stack.

This does add another debuff to the mob, which is an issue, but it fixes the problem.

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Q u o t e:
There are a few cases where classes or specs with the same debuff don't provide equal benefit to everyone. While we don't want the actual debuff to stack, we also don't want to penalize players for not having the benefit or get into a race for who can get the debuff up first. Unfortunately it's not a trivial problem to resolve or we already would have done so, but it is something we want to get fixed.

In the meantime, if your dps is suffering beyond what you can endure, you do have the option of going Blood or Frost.

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This is the same problem that warlocks have with Deaths Embrace I think it was.
The first lock to get it up gets the benefit, and the others are SoL.

Mages have the same problem with Living Bomb, last I heard.

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Q u o t e:
Paladin judgment debuffs seem a little wasted, too, if you bring more than 2 paladins.

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But JoW is static and the same from all paladins with the exact same benefit to everyone. No one is penalized for using it or racing to get it up first (or last depending on who gets "ownership" of the debuff).

JoL is a different story. It scales with AP and Ret JoL should always overwrite Prot & Holy because it has a better benefit. I think this is happening now. But again, no one is penalized because one paladin got it up before another.

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Q u o t e:
if your dps is suffering beyond what you can endure, you do have the option of going Blood or Frost.

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I've thought about this, but Blood seems very underwhelming. (I'd be a Frost Newb...but I have messed with only Unholy and Blood since Beta)

To me, Blood just seems like its missing something. It also seems to "re-capture" the pre WOTLK ret-paladin feel, which isn't much of a compliment...if a compliment at all.

* Hopeful crit watcher
* 1 trick pony AOE (Death and Decay) which hits for less damage than Consecration at equal levels.
* Instead of the RNG pain that is Seal of Command, you have the RNG generated bloodworms healing, which is unreliable.

Then, there's the 51 point Dancing Rune Weapon, which would be nice if the cooldown wasn't so long. Again, I go back to unreliability, cooldown-watching, RNG stuff, and crit-hoping.

A Blood DK seems to rely on more "faith" than an old-school Ret Paladin.

Blood just seems to be missing a big fun factor to me. Anyone else feel that way?

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Q u o t e:
There are a few cases where classes or specs with the same debuff don't provide equal benefit to everyone. While we don't want the actual debuff to stack, we also don't want to penalize players for not having the benefit or get into a race for who can get the debuff up first. Unfortunately it's not a trivial problem to resolve or we already would have done so, but it is something we want to get fixed.

In the meantime, if your dps is suffering beyond what you can endure, you do have the option of going Blood or Frost.

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Hey Ghostcrawler-

Frost DPS wasn't up to par in beta, you even said as much. What's the status on that now? I really like abilities like Howling Blast, but I'd like to know what you guys currently think in regard to Frost DK DPS and its current state in the game.

Concerning the Ebon Plaguebearer issue, I can see where that would be tricky to fix with code. You could... I suppose.. make it part of the Ebon Plaguebearer talent, where it checks the mob for the disease (since it can only be applied once), and if it's there, gives the spec'd Death Knight the benefit whether it's his Ebon Plague or not. I suppose in vbasic, it would be an if / then / else statement.

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Q u o t e:
Hey Ghostcrawler-

Frost DPS wasn't up to par in beta, you even said as much. What's the status on that now? I really like abilities like Howling Blast, but I'd like to know what you guys currently think in regard to Frost DK DPS and its current state in the game.

Concerning the Ebon Plaguebearer issue, I can see where that would be tricky to fix with code. You could... I suppose.. make it part of the Ebon Plaguebearer talent, where it checks the mob for the disease (since it can only be applied once), and if it's there, gives the spec'd Death Knight the benefit whether it's his Ebon Plague or not. I suppose in vbasic, it would be an if / then / else statement.

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QFT! Frost DK dps is very under whelming. It would be nice for all three DK trees to be viable.

Our guild is currently running three Unholy Death Knights, as we discovered that even with two diseases, Unholy beats Blood. Of course some of that is gearing. I believe the theorycrafting says that:

- If your ghoul will survive, Unholy is always the best DPS
- Unholy is better than blood at low gearing levels and high gearing levels
- Blood beats unholy if you are at a middle gearing level and can't keep your ghoul up
- Frost is always a couple hundred DPS below blood and unholy

There are two reasons Unholy beats blood at high levels. First, the T7 set bonuses benefit unholy far more than Blood. And second, the sigil from Naxxramas is a disgusting amount of extra damage for Unholy, while the badge purchased sigil is actually worse for blood than the starter sigil.

This hasn't been aggressively tested, but our anecdotal evidence is that stacking Unholy is the way to go. So it's annoying not getting the third disease but not terrible. It probably accounts for around 200 DPS lost per fight, and that's much less than the margin by which hunters are crushing everyone on damage meters.

Of course, all of this is dependent on available gear. If future gear contains a lot of armor penetration and haste, then blood might overtake unholy again, because these stats are less bad. Note that I say "less bad" and not "good".