World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Thoughts on death knights

Dreyfus

< Evolution >

Skullcrusher

300. Re: Thoughts on death knights 12/02/2008 01:45:41 PM PST

I'm sorry, but most of the changes you're listing seem mainly like nerfs to appease the pvp crowds.

Yes Bone Shield will in its current state continue to scale with gear making it one of the best abilities for tanking. If you really want to change it I'd suggest perhaps the duration of it, but again it's only one aspect of the game that you're going to see it scale quite so well, and it's only with the highest gear levels that this will occur.

As for Frost and Blood. Blood aoe tanking is rather weak, and will of the necropolis is really not a favorable talent. Change the mechanic with gaining the armor bonus at below 35% health, as it is really not very useful. It's similar to the mage talent that allows them to cast a 1.5s pyroblast when below 35% health. These components just aren't that practical. Especially if it's incoming magic damage then the increased armor does nothing. Also perhaps use one of the higher end blood talents to increase the damage blood boil does. Say with will of the necropolis. If blood plague is on the target your blood boil does 33%/66%/100% more damage.

Frost tanking felt a bit clumsy. I like Howling Blast, but the spec just feels a bit off to me, but perhaps that's just me. UA is nice because the armor and strength bonuses are percents which means they will scale, and strength does increase our parry and threat fur the duration it's up.

That's all I have to add for now.

Flamingcloud-"Frost mages are so OP, they can lock me out for 13 seconds with non improved CS and Deep Freeze".

Guile

< Revival >

Ysondre

301. Re: Thoughts on death knights 12/02/2008 01:51:42 PM PST

Will there be any two handers with defense to make up for the loss of shield and sword defense? Because currently it is nearly impossible to hit the defense cap without seal of pantheon or repelling charge in full epics.

Beta Pudge.

Alysanne

< BRICKED >

Rexxar

302. Re: Thoughts on death knights 12/02/2008 01:56:33 PM PST

I apologize in advance for not reading the rest of the thread - I usually never post without doing so, however it's already 17 pages and I just wanted to add a few thoughts.

Q u o t e:
1) Death knights seem to tank well when they have cooldowns available and take too much damage otherwise. The change here seems obvious – boost Frost presence’s mitigation while reducing the mitigation of some other abilities, especially Icebound Fortitude and Bone Shield.

This is very true. While I would absolutely hate to see Bone Shield nerfed, if the compensation from FP was enough to make up for it, I could be ok. Basically I feel as a Dk tank that if I don't have one of my CDs up (Bone Shield or IBF) then I am taking way too much damage and sucking the healers mana down too fast.

For instance tanking Patchwerk, with Bone Shield up the incoming hits are approx 5-6k damage, but when I don't have anything up (which is about 30 seconds of every minute) the hits are 10k+, and with a 30k health pool, that does not leave a lot of wiggle room for healers when they are already healing the MT as well.

I would love to get more armor mitigation from FP, but I also don't want to simply turn into a better version of a Bear tank. I enjoy the CD interaction of DK. Maybe instead of increasing FP, you could give us 1 more ~20 second ability on a 1 min CD to use in between BS/UA and IBF.

Maybe that's too much, I don't know. But I would really hate to see DKs simply rely on FP to mitigate most of our damage, and have Bone Shield and IBF turn into simply "Oh sh*t" buttons.

Q u o t e:
2) One idea we have for Icebound Fortitude is to scale the mitigation based on defense skill.

This would be pretty cool - as long as at 540 defense it is the same 50% mitigation, and scales up from there.

Q u o t e:
4) Rune Strike was intended to be a reactive tanking tool, not a rogue killer. We will probably chill its weapon damage and increase its threat.

I really don't see the need to nerf RS damage, but whatever. As long as the threat is good, and it does at least as much as a normal weapon swing...

Q u o t e:
5) We don’t like the behavior where DKs feel like they are supposed to drop Death and Decay to generate runic power before a pull. It just looks goofy. We will probably lower the runic power costs of Unholy Blight and Horn of Winter, which seem to be the primary reasons to generate RP. Horn of Winter will probably be something like no cost, 30 sec cooldown, generates 10 rp.

That all sounds good.

Q u o t e:
7) There are some annoying parts of the non-pet ghoul. We want to lower the aggro range (for less accidental pulls) and spawn the ghoul in quicker when dismounting. The ghoul, at least Unholy’s version, could also use some AE avoidance like other pets.

Yes, ghouls are completely worthless in a raid atm without avoidance. I spawn mine and he dies 20 seconds later from all the splash damage going around.

Overall sounds very good but please keep in mind that we do not want to simply become Feral druids that have Parry. I absolutely love Bone Shield and do not want to see it nerfed into the ground to compensate. IMO, UA could use some buffing (some magic damage reduction might be nice) but that's another topic altogether.

Edit:typos

[ Post edited by Alysanne ]

Ayanoske

< Gardians Of The Ligh… >

Aegwynn

303. Re: Thoughts on death knights 12/02/2008 01:59:16 PM PST

in response to the DW to tanking, it is viable IF you know what your doing. Take a look at most of the tanking gear, it has expertise on it. When you are expertise capped you cant be Parried or dodged, therefore making DW viable and a nice choice for extra threat generation as well as getting the defense of tanking weapons.

Junon

< Osmosis >

Skywall

304. Re: Thoughts on death knights 12/02/2008 01:59:29 PM PST

Q u o t e:

Consider changing Night of the Dead for this. Also please consider making Night of the Dead a passive cooldown reduction to Raise Dead versus an active one.

Huh? Why? That would just make it worse as far as the cooldown goes, unless it is moved down to something like 20-30 seconds. Night of the Dead is a great talent right now.

Fennecus

Darrowmere

305. Re: Thoughts on death knights 12/02/2008 02:02:36 PM PST

Im Really not sure any of the changes are need save for the blood tanking and ghouls.
IBF while nice has never bin a game changer in pvp many classes can kill you just fine with 50% less dmg. And for Tanking you need to know when to use it and when not being able to blow all your CDs at once or one at a time makes the death knight a very Fun tank. But forcing me to stack even more D is just stupid when i'm losing it every epic i get ~.~
Unholy seems to the main spec for most DK cuz its just easy as can be. having a Ghoul to dps more or a AoE around you to pick up any adds that spawn make it easy mode for almost everything. Bone Shield is a "Set it and forget" CD making it useable 3times where VB or UA would be used once and with its 2% more dmg any unholy spec is going to pick it up anyway. even its Main Attack SS is easy mode bypassing armor and not worrying about +hit like Frost.
When i speced Frost to tank i feel like im losing soo much and gaining so very very little. HB is nice and all but it likes to crit for dmg and it doesnt crit alot with a frost tanking spec meaning less threat.. Getting IT up on every Target is hard when your CCing stuff you need a Pro CC to get it b4 it get in your pestilence Range or you need to drag them back and hope that none of your dps goes crazy right then. I know that other tanks have to deal with this but when i have two ITs for the next 10sec i cant Tab hit every one of them.
Rune Strike while Crazy Good seems like something a DK would have to spec into to get the full use out of it (picking up the Blade Barrier Talent). i would rather just seem a Nerf to it and see it pick up its full dmg from a Talent say like Anticipation.
At the risk of being to warriorish why doesnt Blood tab give RP? and why would a DK need RP when they cast HoW seems a little odd. Seeing how a Deathknight ina Full 25man wont be Casting HoW cuz of a Ench shamys totem.
the RP Gain from ERW is too low its never much to do anything with and for its long CD it should be something i can use not go "oh this is nice"

a Few random thoughts on DK tanking.
-Do something to help us Deal with CC better i break more CC then the AoE happy ret pally.
-HC should not Break CC with the IT it puts on targets too many times will you freeze something have your pro mage sheep it before it breaks to have IT break the sheep. Eh? what kind of useless CC is that.
-HC should apply IT to targets its immune too -.- or whats the point of even picking it up for tanking.
-on Blood Tanking buff the Crit dmg of blood Boil more for AoE Threat and/or reduce the CD of pestilence.
-Give Blood even more HP maybe make a talent to boost the HP grain of Frost Presence.
-Deflection is just odd 30% seems low for a 40% chance at max.
-Does Dancing Runic Weapon have Threat?

Sand or Snow?

Wardaemon

< FLIPSIDE KINGS >

Eredar

307. Re: Thoughts on death knights 12/02/2008 02:05:04 PM PST

Please don't gut IBF, its a major playstyle feature of the class, and its dispellable, and DKs can be cc during it. And making runestrike have more threat?!! Please don't insult us, you guys have made threat a non issue its easy as hell to hold aggro rignt now.This is a straight up pvp nerf, to one of our most useful pve abilities. I hate when you guys do this and ruin our pve for pvp, and on top of that because you think its a rogue killer! God forbid rogues dominate 8 classes instead of 7.

Waracle

< Crossbones >

Zul'jin

308. Re: Thoughts on death knights 12/02/2008 02:08:21 PM PST

Q u o t e:
4) Rune Strike was intended to be a reactive tanking tool, not a rogue killer. We will probably chill its weapon damage and increase its threat.

I like the power getting its threat from damage. Part of the feel of a DK, rather than a warrior. If PvP is the issue, why not just make it deal less damage against players and leave it be against mobs?

Ghostcrawler

Blizzard Poster

309. Re: Thoughts on death knights 12/02/2008 02:08:53 PM PST

Q u o t e:
Man, I was really hoping that general forums would be better and we'd see the maturity that was (generally at least) shown on the beta forums, but I suppose I was wrong.

GC, I'd like to propose heavier moderation - a lot of these posts are useless to everyone, especially other players.

I agree. This is not an appropriate place for mindless QQ or Blizzard conspiracy theories. If you think there will be a problem with some of the changes we're discussing, by all means bring them up. That is why we are mentioning them now. But please make sure your post is of some interest to other players or developers. Spare us the venting.

We've been a little gentle with the moderation so far because these role forums are a new experiment for all of us. I tend to delete junk and ban people who post it, but really you probably don't want me having to spend time doing that.

Now back to the actual issue...

There are some DK sigils missing from the game. At least one of these is tanking oriented. We plan on getting them back in soon (like the same patch with these other changes).

We are aware that DKs may be struggling more to get defense. They lack tanking weapons, shields and guns, all of which can provide defense to warriors. It's something we're working on.

We're also working on Blood AE.

We would change the Horn of Winter glyph (to something like duration).

I would not expect full itemization for two-handed tanking weapons. We wanted DKs to tank with dps two-handers (and have their mitigation benefit somewhat from the dps stats). We might add a craftable weapon or something down the road, but only if that felt like an option for the DK, not a mandatory piece of gear. You can also dual-wield tanking weapons if you want, but again, it isn't the intent that is the only way to play. (Please don't turn the rest of this thread into a discussion of whether or not DKs should be able to dual-wield.)

Rune Strike is a tanking ability. It was designed to let DKs make up for the fact that their threat suffers so much from hits that fail to land. It does suffer from a confusing tooltip (which we have since fixed) but it is the DK who must avoid the attack to get Rune Strike to light up.

We still like DKs as the "active abilities" tank. We just think it might be a little too extreme right now. Icebound Fortitude was intended to be something you use when a big, predictable damage spike is coming, but DK tanks seem to want to keep them up 100% of the time for fear that they will die without them.

We don't have a PvP role forum (though there is a PvP forum) for the specific reason that we wanted the ability to discuss PvP and PvE issues at once. I realize not every player is interested in PvP -- that's cool, not every player is interested in paladin tank mechanics either. But it is totally appropriate to discuss PvP issues in all 3 role forums. Obviously we don't want PvP (or PvE) discussions to dominate. PvP is a part of the game and we do make balance changes for PvP reasons. Obviously we don't want PvP (or PvE) balance to dominate. Please do not use the rest of this thread to refute any of those claims (though starting others is fine if you really feel the need).

Wolrok

< Lux et Veritas >

Undermine

310. Re: Thoughts on death knights 12/02/2008 02:09:51 PM PST

Q u o t e:

Huh? Why? That would just make it worse as far as the cooldown goes, unless it is moved down to something like 20-30 seconds. Night of the Dead is a great talent right now.

Not really. And I meant more of a "remove the cooldown from the ghoul with the talent since it's considered part of Unholy's DPS and already has a pretty decent cost so far as reagents go".

Frozenpatty

< Warpath >

Nordrassil

311. Re: Thoughts on death knights 12/02/2008 02:11:06 PM PST

Q u o t e:

2) One idea we have for Icebound Fortitude is to scale the mitigation based on defense skill. This lets the ability be less of a paladin bubble in PvP for dps knights, while still letting it act more like Shield Wall for tanks. It also has the side effect of making defense slightly more attractive to death knights. (Let me add before it’s asked that yes we understand Ferals have this problem too and we are working on it.)

I disagree with this methodology in light of the current tank gear itemization. Based upon the current gear itemization, Death Knights have to work on stacking defense to meet the critical strike mitigation number of 540 defense. As such, Death Knights have little room to stack stamina, or more DK-ish stats like parry. I'd prefer to see IBF scale based upon parry to make for better synergy with talents such as Spell Deflection and skills such as Rune Strike, and see some better DK gear itemization (like a Sigil with +45 defense on it)

Q u o t e:

3) Unholy is a very popular tanking spec, largely on the strength of Bone Shield. Expect to see some buffs to tanking talents in the Blood tree especially.

Yay! Might I suggest some adjustments to Vampiric Blood that maybe increase mitigation as a function of healing received? Additionally, doing something to Will of the Necropolis to reduce the cooldown of either IBF or Anti-Magic shell when below 35% would be nice (e.g. when below 35% health, the cooldown of your anti-magic shell and IBF and is reduced by 20/30 seconds. This may only happen once per minute).

Q u o t e:

4) Rune Strike was intended to be a reactive tanking tool, not a rogue killer. We will probably chill its weapon damage and increase its threat.

This seems to make sense. Overpower is simply weapon damage, whereas Rune Strike is 200% weapon damage. However, I hope the developers keep in consideration that Warriors can spec for a +50% critical strike chance to over power, whereas we cannot. At best we can glyph for +10% chance, at the cost of more rune power. Also, I'd like to point out that Rune Strike is excellent for soloing and leveling, so I hope it is not nerfed severely.

Good news!

My other mount is your mom.

Anjuna

< Atonement >

Uther

312. Re: Thoughts on death knights 12/02/2008 02:11:40 PM PST

Rune Strike is also a high-DPS runic power dump for leveling and soloing DK's... can you please comment on if the drop in DPS will be made up in another area?

[ Post edited by Anjuna ]

Leart

< Highly Unorthodox >

Burning Legion

315. Re: Thoughts on death knights 12/02/2008 02:14:50 PM PST

Q u o t e:
We still like DKs as the "active abilities" tank. We just think it might be a little too extreme right now. Icebound Fortitude was intended to be something you use when a big, predictable damage spike is coming, but DK tanks seem to want to keep them up 100% of the time for fear that they will die without them.

If that's the problem, you're addressing it wrong.

Sure, go ahead and up our base for the rest of the time, then bring down the other "tanking talents".
There's no way people would go after 100% uptime if it was only Icebound.

Just talking hypothetical: Remove Bone Shield, Unbreakable Armor, Vampiric Blood.
Bam. You have one tanking timer, and you'll be saving it, instead of trying for 100% uptime.

Dont' like that idea? Want two timers? (Yes please!)
Fix Bone Shield, that's the problem. It is the only secondary tanking timer able to extend past a duration.
Kill the charges, put a timer on it. There ya go. 2/3 uptime only.

[ Post edited by Leart ]

"Now, we must all fear evil men. But there is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men."

Errant

< Rising Storm >

Lightbringer

317. Re: Thoughts on death knights 12/02/2008 02:19:28 PM PST

Is this tanking sigil at least comparable to an armor plated shotgun's provided benefits? Given the history of relics I'm expecting that its not, but I'll be happy if I'm surprised.

This sig is fleeting human contact
Both of us lost,
but for a moment
we're lost together.
I wonder who you are. -xkcd

Wolrok

< Lux et Veritas >

Undermine

319. Re: Thoughts on death knights 12/02/2008 02:22:34 PM PST

Q u o t e:

We still like DKs as the "active abilities" tank. We just think it might be a little too extreme right now. Icebound Fortitude was intended to be something you use when a big, predictable damage spike is coming, but DK tanks seem to want to keep them up 100% of the time for fear that they will die without them.

That's probably due to there being zero passive mitigation beyond armor for physical hits.

And is probably the reason everyone looks at death knights as avoidance tanks and what makes Bone Shield utterly superior to every other death knight tanking ability.

If you're determined to add passive mitigation somewhere, may I suggest that it be added to a high-tier tanking talent in each tree? (Accimilation, Will of the Necropolis, ? for Unholy)

Edit: Or heck, make Frost Presence give a defense boost/avoidance boost (or tanking talents give a defense/avoidance boost) then change the other big tanking abilities in each tree to something that works better with avoidance.

But that's not nerfs, and could very well be overpowered as gear gets better. :V

[ Post edited by Wolrok ]

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