World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Thoughts on death knights

Ghostcrawler

Blizzard Poster

0. Thoughts on death knights 12/02/2008 09:04:30 AM PST

We’ve had a lot of questions about death knights recently. This is a new class, and while we’re thrilled overall with how it's been received, we always expected to have to make more changes to death knights than the classes that have had their talents under the microscope for many years.

We’re not prepared to announce specific changes to DKs yet, but here are some general areas we are tinkering with. Most of these changes apply predominantly to tanking death knights, so I avoided cross-posting this thread, but there are probably items of interest to dps specs as well.

1) Death knights seem to tank well when they have cooldowns available and take too much damage otherwise. The change here seems obvious – boost Frost presence’s mitigation while reducing the mitigation of some other abilities, especially Icebound Fortitude and Bone Shield.

2) One idea we have for Icebound Fortitude is to scale the mitigation based on defense skill. This lets the ability be less of a paladin bubble in PvP for dps knights, while still letting it act more like Shield Wall for tanks. It also has the side effect of making defense slightly more attractive to death knights. (Let me add before it’s asked that yes we understand Ferals have this problem too and we are working on it.)

3) Unholy is a very popular tanking spec, largely on the strength of Bone Shield. Expect to see some buffs to tanking talents in the Blood tree especially.

4) Rune Strike was intended to be a reactive tanking tool, not a rogue killer. We will probably chill its weapon damage and increase its threat.

5) We don’t like the behavior where DKs feel like they are supposed to drop Death and Decay to generate runic power before a pull. It just looks goofy. We will probably lower the runic power costs of Unholy Blight and Horn of Winter, which seem to be the primary reasons to generate RP. Horn of Winter will probably be something like no cost, 30 sec cooldown, generates 10 rp.

EDIT: I am refering to using DnD outside of combat just for the runic power (kind of like Bloodrage for warriors). It's totally legit and intended to use it to start a fight to gain threat and hurt the bad guys.

6) There are some odd situations caused by Shadow of Death that we would like to fix. The talent isn’t designed to let you escape durability damage or rez by zoning into an instance.

7) There are some annoying parts of the non-pet ghoul. We want to lower the aggro range (for less accidental pulls) and spawn the ghoul in quicker when dismounting. The ghoul, at least Unholy’s version, could also use some AE avoidance like other pets.

8) We are probably going to add a new spell to let you raise fallen allies so that you don't have to make the decision between bringing back another player (which was just supposed to be a fun bonus) and bringing back your ghoul, which can be pretty crticial for some specs.

This isn't everything we're talking about of course, just a little preview.

[ Post edited by Ghostcrawler ]

Coldfinger

Darrowmere

1. Re: Thoughts on death knights 12/02/2008 09:07:56 AM PST

Interesting, thanks.

Grazen

< Aleph Null >

Cho'gall

2. Re: Thoughts on death knights 12/02/2008 09:08:39 AM PST

there are already too many tanks and almost no need for them beyond 5 man content.

Dissonance

< Aggressiøn >

Shadowmoon

4. Re: Thoughts on death knights 12/02/2008 09:10:01 AM PST

Q u o t e:
there are already too many tanks and almost no need for them beyond 5 man content.

Not on my server.

Avaddon

< The Army Of Zombies >

Mal'Ganis

5. Re: Thoughts on death knights 12/02/2008 09:11:03 AM PST

Nice!

Clawless

Exodar

6. Re: Thoughts on death knights 12/02/2008 09:11:11 AM PST

Q u o t e:
there are already too many tanks and almost no need for them beyond 5 man content.

agreed.

Gilgurash

< Slackers of the Hord… >

Barthilas

7. Re: Thoughts on death knights 12/02/2008 09:11:15 AM PST

One concern I have that is not addressed in your points, Ghostcrawler, is that defence rating is currently at such a premium for death knight tanks that we are forced to keep crafted BoE blues rather than equipping our new, hard earned epics. I posted a thread on this recently,

Here is the link to the aforementioned thread if youre bored enough to read my concerns in greater detail ^_^

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=13129889282&sid=1

[ Post edited by Gilgurash ]

Toetilorc

< And the Pussiecats >

Malorne

8. Re: Thoughts on death knights 12/02/2008 09:11:55 AM PST

Q u o t e:
there are already too many tanks and almost no need for them beyond 5 man content.

^^

This.

WTB - Healers!

D'Orc Warrior / Belf Warlock

Lichna

< Mortality >

Whisperwind

9. Re: Thoughts on death knights 12/02/2008 09:12:31 AM PST

Q u o t e:

1) Death knights seem to tank well when they have cooldowns available and take too much damage otherwise. The change here seems obvious – boost Frost presence’s mitigation while reducing the mitigation of some other abilities, especially Icebound Fortitude and Bone Shield.

Love it. Smoothing incoming damage is important for healability. I'd just hate to see DKs tanking gimmick taken out too much. Leave us a little spikey, but make it easier to deal with.

Q u o t e:

2) One idea we have for Icebound Fortitude is to scale the mitigation based on defense skill. This lets the ability be less of a paladin bubble in PvP for dps knights, while still letting it act more like Shield Wall for tanks. It also has the side effect of making defense slightly more attractive to death knights. (Let me add before it’s asked that yes we understand Ferals have this problem too and we are working on it.)

Great idea. Consider adding the some Defense or Avoidance scaling to Unbreakable Armor as well, to give Frost some scaling like Bone Shield's

Q u o t e:

3) Unholy is a very popular tanking spec, largely on the strength of Bone Shield. Expect to see some buffs to tanking talents in the Blood tree especially.

See point 2 ;-)

Q u o t e:

4) Rune Strike was intended to be a reactive tanking tool, not a rogue killer. We will probably chill its weapon damage and increase its threat.

Hate to see the big, big Rune Strikes go away, but I understand the neccessity from a PvP point of view.

Q u o t e:

5) We don’t like the behavior where DKs feel like they are supposed to drop Death and Decay to generate runic power before a pull. It just looks goofy. We will probably lower the runic power costs of Unholy Blight and Horn of Winter, which seem to be the primary reasons to generate RP. Horn of Winter will probably be something like no cost, 30 sec cooldown, generates 10 rp.

Definitely a desired change.

Q u o t e:

6) There are some odd situations caused by Shadow of Death that we would like to fix. The talent isn’t designed to let you escape durability damage or rez by zoning into an instance.

Meh, sound more like bugs than anything else.

Q u o t e:

7) There are some annoying parts of the non-pet ghoul. We want to lower the aggro range (for less accidental pulls) and spawn the ghoul in quicker when dismounting. The ghoul, at least Unholy’s version, could also use some AE avoidance like other pets.

Faster spawn on dismount would be wonderful. AE avoidance would help the ghoul to be more than a tasty HP snack parked out of damage range in a boss fight

Q u o t e:

8) We are probably going to add a new spell to let you raise fallen allies so that you don't have to make the decision between bringing back another player (which was just supposed to be a fun bonus) and bringing back your ghoul, which can be pretty crticial for some specs.

New spells and more utility are always desired by anyone.

[ Post edited by Lichna ]

Death Knight Tank Gear Misinformation Crusader

Velgor

< Crimson Star >

Aman'Thul

10. Re: Thoughts on death knights 12/02/2008 09:14:01 AM PST

Thanks GC. Awesome. I ESPECIALLY love the fact that you explained why the changes are made - appreciate it.

I'm licking my chops over what improvements the Blood tanking tree is going to get...

Kobby

< ThunderWalkers >

Drak'thul

11. Re: Thoughts on death knights 12/02/2008 09:16:51 AM PST

I think I'm going off topic here, but there is no sigil for a dk in relation to tanking in game yet, hope to see one soon.

I like the feel of unholy tanking, and that it is a on par substitution to frost being dominate.

No other comments I just got 80.

While your here, any thoughts on why parry is a stat hog when it comes to item stat allocation?

[ Post edited by Kobby ]

#1 pickup line of all time: "Hey, does this rag smell like chloroform to you?

Bibdy

< Escaper >

Bonechewer

12. Re: Thoughts on death knights 12/02/2008 09:17:29 AM PST

Any help on reaching the defense cap without crafting a certain pair of BOE blue gloves and leggings?

I, of course, speak of: http://www.wowhead.com/?search=Daunting

We lack several Defense-related items such as

1) A weapon (unless we use two tanking 1-Handers and risk being parry-squished more often, which few are willing to do)
2) A shield/offhand (see above)
3) The shield enchant of +20 defense rating
4) A ranged-weapon slot item (e.g. Armor-Plated Combat Shotgun)

Some kind of easy-to-get tanking Sigil would be quite helpful. Hell, ANY kind of tanking Sigil would be nice, it doesn't even have to have defense on it. Every Sigil seems to be DPS/threat generation related.

[ Post edited by Bibdy ]

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c106/amijay77/bibdy.jpg
http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/6191/wowscrnshot111908174311az2.jpg

Orland

Kargath

13. Re: Thoughts on death knights 12/02/2008 09:17:32 AM PST

Q u o t e:
4) Rune Strike was intended to be a reactive tanking tool, not a rogue killer. We will probably chill its weapon damage and increase its threat.

Awww.... :'( I knew it was coming, but still...

Q u o t e:
Horn of Winter will probably be something like no cost, 30 sec cooldown, generates 10 rp.

But that totally makes up for it! :D

And yeah, Blood tanking needs a lot of help -- especially in the AoE department.

Mordynthe

Kilrogg

14. Re: Thoughts on death knights 12/02/2008 09:18:41 AM PST

Q u o t e:

Many DKs don't drop DnD before the pull to generate Runic Power, they do it because it's great aggro that lasts long enough for you to drop it early to speed up your first threat rotation.

I think GC is referring to using DnD to put Horn of Winter up pre-pull. I use DnD for that a lot. I use DnD as an opener on all of my AoE pulls, though.

This looks promising!

Lichna

< Mortality >

Whisperwind

15. Re: Thoughts on death knights 12/02/2008 09:19:10 AM PST

I wonder what they'll change Glyph of Horn of Winter into if they make that Horn of Winter change.

http://www.wowhead.com/?item=43544

Death Knight Tank Gear Misinformation Crusader

Desdemonica

< Dev Null >

Malygos

17. Re: Thoughts on death knights 12/02/2008 09:21:14 AM PST

Q u o t e:
Many DKs don't drop DnD before the pull to generate Runic Power, they do it because it's great aggro that lasts long enough for you to drop it early to speed up your first threat rotation.

He means drop it while out of combat to generate RP. I do that all the time between pulls when I forget to refresh it.

This game is not balanced around 1 vs 1, solo PvE, BGs, Raids, or Arenas.

It's balanced around Cake and Pie. And the Cake is a Lie.

Adamarius

< Self Titled >

Mal'Ganis

18. Re: Thoughts on death knights 12/02/2008 09:22:40 AM PST

Q u o t e:

5) ... Horn of Winter will probably be something like no cost, 30 sec cooldown, generates 10 rp.

By the way, this would be a great way to redesign warrior shouts too. No rage, 30 second cooldown, also adds some other benefit when used (rage, short haste/damage buff etc).

Forum > CLASS ROLES > TANKING