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Q u o t e:
this is not a problem with class design. This is a problem with the encounter design.

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This is effectively the message I am trying to put across. The healing community (the paladin community specifically) was told that less emphasis would be put on AoE healing. Yet here we are.

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Q u o t e:


You've proven my point, druids were horrible priests were "2nd best" at raid healing and competitive guilds preferred to bring neither. Yet I didn't see the shamans complaining about that "injustice" did I?

Next time you decide to disagree, figure out what you disagree with first...

Alts are as credible as anyone when they are..right. I love kids who didn't know things like forum bans exist.

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By that logic, Ret paladins and Boomkins should always be number 1 on the healing meter, right? Stop living in the past. Focus on the future. No raid encounter should completely exclude two healing classes from raid encounters.

None of us want to see priests and druids fail, or to see CoH & WG nerfed, though by your tone you probably don't believe me. We want to see "Bring the player, not the class" accounted for into raid encounters, just like Blizzard has preached entering WotLK.

If there's any Priests around from late BC beta, Blizzard said they weren't going to do anything about Fear Ward back then, since Fear wasn't going to be a serious raid mechanic anymore.

Well, shortly after saying that, people discovered Nightbane. Pretty nasty pre-nerf, and Fear Ward helped out quite a lot. Later there was Archimonde, which IMO was one of the worst designed fights in the game, but once again fear wards and tremor totems made a real difference.

My point? Blizzard says a lot of things. What they do only sometimes matches up.

I haven't seen the Malygos fight, but from the description it sounds like it's one of those "yeah I know we said AoE wasn't going to be the focus anymore, but what we really meant was..." type fights.

Hate this mechanic. With our awkward raid setup of two shamans it simply a pain to get past the 3/4 vortexes. People have to wear their saph FR gear with massive stamina, use health stones, H pots, while timing nature swiftness and riptide to hopefully save someone near dead.

Or you could just sub in a priest/druid forget the ridiculous raid setup and power through it.

Raid leaders will choose? I find it really hard to believe someone up at Irvine didn't put 2 and 2 together.

Did 10 man malygos with resto shaman/resto druid/holy paladin, no DK like the first week of xpac in full t6 and it was pretty easy tbh. Top everyone off, beacon someone, holy shock another person, blah blah, easymode.

edit: malygos is the only well tuned encounter atm, everything else is a joke (beside doing three drake sartharion).

Blizzard, as a Paladin who doesn't heal,

PLEASE, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, GIVE THE HOLY PALADINS AN AOE INSTANT HEAL SO THEY WILL SHUT UP, ALREADY. Heck with it, make Lay on Hands affect the whole raid and have a 5 second cooldown.

I give up. Balance be damned, they just whine and whine and whine and AAAAH I can't take it anymore.

I personally don't care -- I run with priests, I don't really like Holy paladins as a rule -- but oh god the whining must stop.

I think I'm the only person that uses Malygos' Vortex ability to regen my mana as a CoH Priest instead of wasting mana healing a small handful of people spinning.

Just top everyone off before Vortex starts and they should be able to live through it with very little effort on my part. Then, once we land I just spam CoH a few times or until people are topped off. Just need to make sure the tank is topped off in Vortex so that they can grab Malygos once they land.

Then again I've not done 10 man with a Holy Paladin or Resto Shaman in the raid or 25 man with a Resto Shaman.

I do feel the pain though for 10 man groups needing at least 1 of the Priest/Druid class healers in the raid to be absolutely effective.

Though I'm sure once people are more geared you'll be able to do 10 man Malygos with Paladin/Shaman combo healers.

Continuing from that, I hate that everyone wants to steamroll through content. Content being both heroic instances and raid instances. A lot of the heroics are doable at our gear level and even some of the achievements, but no I can not keep a tank alive while you try to get him to aoe pull 3+ groups of mobs so you can use your pretty AoE dps abilities. ><

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Q u o t e:
Blizzard, as a Paladin who doesn't heal,

I give up. Balance be damned, they just whine and whine and whine and AAAAH I can't take it anymore.

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Soooo, let's scratch that inc single target taunt for prot, balance be damned.

Seriously, I do not understand Blizzard logic.

They nerf healers so encounters are a bit more challenging (for healers only) than basic button smashing, still they buff DPS and Tanking to historical heights. (why not un-nerf healers and nerf tanking/dps for more challenge for everyone ?)

Then they tell healers should respec dps to play outside raids, and do not implement dual spec. (how many months are they talking about that ? just create a npc with free respec cost and it's solved... 5 min programming)

Then claim that healers AoE heals are too easy... after making those spells smart and give them to more classes.

Then they claim that no encounter is designed with raid damage... I won't even comment on this... have they played their game ? the encounters without any need of fast AoE raid healing are the exception more than the rule.

about priests and CoH: if they want to nerf CoH, they can make PoH smart... it's a 3sec cast, so no issue for anyone, and it's a base spell, so even disc priest will have an AoE heal. Biggest issue I have as a priest is to heal 2 targets (no beacon like tool), but I can live without it... biggest issue is the buffs provided and the discipline healing/utility (I am holy)

for paladins: they should create a talent allowing to cast instant [free ?] FoL (or a new spell) after a specific event (like a Holy Light crit) ; eventually make it stack to 3-5, with a 20-30 sec duration (resets and stacks at each crit)... that allows them to manage slightly what they do, and burst at specific time (when mobility is required) ; eventually a damage reduction short duration buff (triggered or on a short timer)

for shamans, I would put the healing [and mana ?] totem as a much wider raid area, so it would heal everyone for large amounts (slowly, that's for sure, but it's a large healing volume) ; I would also add a new mana [20-40% mana raid wide in 10 sec, then targeted oo5 mana regen tool] or healing [50-100% life raid wide in 10 sec ; then a few direct heals] elemental with the same debuff limitation as for bloodlust

for druids, I like them as they are... even more versatile than priests... still a slight issue of having 2 tree auras (they don't stack, even partially), unless the raid is spaced too much

Yeah. I agree with OP.

I did this in 10man last night. Me, Paladin and Shaman healing. Without CoH or WG i could see how some people would view the encounter as nearly impossible. We barely would get out of Phase 1 Alive and I made that boomkin innervate me as if it was on my own castbar.

Right before we did 10man version, we got realm first of the 25man Malygos. I was the only CoH in the raid and here again...obviously not resting on my shoulders but CoH and WG were big factors in surviving phase 1.

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Q u o t e:
Blizzard, as a Paladin who doesn't heal,

PLEASE, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, GIVE THE HOLY PALADINS AN AOE INSTANT HEAL SO THEY WILL SHUT UP, ALREADY. Heck with it, make Lay on Hands affect the whole raid and have a 5 second cooldown.

I give up. Balance be damned, they just whine and whine and whine and AAAAH I can't take it anymore.

I personally don't care -- I run with priests, I don't really like Holy paladins as a rule -- but oh god the whining must stop.

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Hey look one of our 2 easy mode spec is qq'ing about people wanting balance.

you are able to do casts that are < 1 second while in the vortex if you spam. Utilize tidal waves & riptide to get some quick spots on people. Can also pop Tidal Force for some AA procs. Id save NS for the second vortex, and also be sure everyone is 100% going into the vortex.

i havent done it on 10 man yet, but after doing 25 last night, I can see how it'd be rough. Just be aware who has low total hp going into a vortex, and be sure to give them some care in the air.

i dont think the people who did it on 10 man in our guild used a druid, we dont have any resto druids atm :(

But don't you see what a catch-22 this sets up?

Blizzard makes a raid instance to challenge AOE healers, then punishes them for spamming their AOE heals?

We did it with myself (holy paladin), a not very well geared shaman and a druid and hardly had problems with the first phase. How many times did you have to go into the cyclone thing and did you get to phase two with your setup? Was it always difficult to get passed the first and second wave or what? I mean I could see why it'd be difficult if your DPS couldn't burn him to phase two fast enough and you'd have to endure a 4th cyclone, but the first and second with your setup shouldn't be that difficult.

Although let it be noted that we all had pretty decent stamina, so I mean it wasn't a nightmare for us during that part. Did the entire raid consistently drop to zero or just a select few with low HP? We kind of had our druid do a little rotation where he'd just know who couldn't survive it without a HoT, and myself and the shaman would do what we could with riptide and holy shock, and we were able to execute decently.

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Q u o t e:
But don't you see what a catch-22 this sets up?

Blizzard makes a raid instance to challenge AOE healers, then punishes them for spamming their AOE heals?

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It's kind of the other way around I guess. They made AoE healers too powerful, and therefore need to put intense AoE healing fights... which is why they are nerfing it. Not to mention you guys AoE heals are INSTANT casts. When they nerf it, we'll be able to see less fights like this.

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Q u o t e:
I hate dropping a blue post in a thread with so much trolling and Blizzard conspiracy theories, but the OP did ask a question I want to address.

The Malygos Vortex is the kind of thing we have to do to challenge AE healing because otherwise groups can pretty much trivialize it. This is one of the reasons we think Wild Growth and Circle of Healing need to be nerfed. If those spells aren't so powerful, then vortex and similar moments don't have to be so intense either and we'll be able to nerf it if needed.

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Hi GC!

I'm going to just jump right into this, because I don't like to beat about the bush.

No offense intended to you, or any of your coworkers, but that statement seems a little bit a#$-backwards.

Let me clarify.

You design a fight that forces AOE healers to spam their AOE heals. Then you want to nerf the AOE heal because they're spamming it in the fight designed to force them to do just that.

My apologies, I'm having trouble following the logic inherant in this philosophy.

If you don't want AOE healers to spam their AOE heal, then do not design fights that force them to do just that.

If you want AOE healers to spam their AOE heal, then continue to design fights as you've been doing.

But please, while I realize that there has been a lot of insane trolling on this thread, I would ask that you not insult the intelligence of those of us who have not been trolling by expecting us to swallow what you just said.

It doesn't make sense in my tiny brain, and I'm certain that it doesn't make sense in the tiny brains of my fellow WoW Healing Addicts. While we are, to the last man, complete masochists, I think even this is pushing it a bit too far.

I want to bring my friends with me on raids. I dont' want to have to respec to handle a raid. I don't want to see paladins, or shamans, or druids, or other priests left out because a fight has some kind of crazy healing lunacy that forces us to choose one kind of healer over another.

I want to work with my fellow healers. I want it to be awesome, like in Naxx last night where we owed our survival to a dedicated Healadin who chose just the right moment to hit his Lay on Hands and saved the day! That's what I want to see.

Edited for typos!

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Q u o t e:
But don't you see what a catch-22 this sets up?

Blizzard makes a raid instance to challenge AOE healers, then punishes them for spamming their AOE heals?

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I agree. You shouldn't nerf instant AoE heals because other healers are struggling with the encounter. No offense Ghostcrawler, but that sounds like bizarro universe logic.

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Q u o t e:

It's kind of the other way around I guess. They made AoE healers too powerful, and therefore need to put intense AoE healing fights... which is why they are nerfing it. Not to mention you guys AoE heals are INSTANT casts. When they nerf it, we'll be able to see less fights like this.

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They should give shaman instant cast CH somehow, IMO. And do something for paladins as well. And leave the encounters as they are.

Edit: becuz i speel gud

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Q u o t e:

The Malygos Vortex is the kind of thing we have to do to challenge AE healing because otherwise groups can pretty much trivialize it. This is one of the reasons we think Wild Growth and Circle of Healing need to be nerfed. If those spells aren't so powerful, then vortex and similar moments don't have to be so intense either and we'll be able to nerf it if needed.

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Don't you be nerf batting us. We have enough problems without you weakening us more because of this one situation. Why take holy priests from being a competitive healing class to a "gap filling" bench warmer?

I though we weren't gonna see big aoe dmg fights like this? Fights that would trivialize healers w/o proper aoe?

/sigh