Irresponisble use of the knockback annoys me a lot. I think once the novelty wears off it won't be so bad. It seems pugs love to wait until I'm positionned just right to use shockwave and thunderclap and JUST AS I USE THEM... poof everything is out of their range and they're on cooldown. The group normally doesn't wipe for it, but it makes my job harder very quickly. DOing it after a shockwave is fine, after the thunder clap, that's fine too, in fact I like that since between those threat pulses its just damage on me (ignoring reflected damage). SO long as the mobs get knocked back in such a way that the mobs return to the FRONT of me.. and so long as it's not a bunch of ranged units that I just spent 30 seconds manipulating into melee range... everything is fine.

No, I don't care. I've even gone so far as to stop other people from complaining on my behalf.

Most of the time its being done to have a little fun and it varies up my reaction a lil so it makes trash more interesting as far as I'm concerned.

Hell we even allowed it in Hyjal when the 3.0 changes went live the first tuesday (*before we really understood how easymode everything had become)

It's annoying because it's important for a tank to have all the mobs in front of him, when they all get knocked back they fly in all directions and most of time you end up with at least 1 mob beating on you from behind meaning you cannot block/parry/dodge the mob and it can crit you.

you have to reposition yourself meaning the mobs will move meaning the melee are losing dps time running around getting behind the mob.

So it is not a good idea to move the mobs when they are all grouped up and tanked.

Without a doubt! Really sucks when you get casters that are barely in range as it is and then they get thrown into different directions.

Anyone done Halls of Lightning yet and had one knock the mobs over the rail into more groups? That is a fun situation watching your impending doom come up the stairs to get your party.

Sometimes it's good, sometimes it's bad.

Good use of knockback:
-I've pulled too many mobs and I'm getting creamed, knockback gives the healer time to fill me back up.
-Something is running at the knockbacker or the healer, they get knocked back allowing me time to grab them.
-A healer is getting ready to heal and all other interrupt functions are down. Knockback stops the heal (this is also bad if they get out of range and I have to run to grab them). This is purely situational as usually one heal is not going to make or break the fight.
-I've had it used to knock casters TO me (that was a really good mage).
-Knockbacks that prevent a mob from getting somewhere bad (i.e. the spiders in Drak that run to summon the little spiders if you don't stop them)

Bad use of knockback:
-I haven't generated much threat on the pack, they get knocked out of my range, forcing me to blow my taunt to get them back and/or causing a dps to die.
-They get knockbacked then frost nova'd out of my range. The melee DPS gets creamed since they are the closest.
-Casters, who are hard to position anyway, get knocked not only out of my range, but also far enough apart from each other that I cannot drop a consecrate on top of all of them.
-Knockbacks into other groups
-Knockbacks when everyone else is doing fine DPSing where it is, causing wasted AoE and/or single target stuff
-Knockbacks when I'm not even done positioning.

I will tell a player once and only once that if they knockback when it isn't necessary or when it is detrimental, then they can either find a new tank or we will find a new DPS. I won't say it until they've done it once (I like to give them the benefit of the doubt), then I'll tell them. After that, I announce to the group to type 1 for me to leave, type 2 for him to be kicked, no vote means I leave.

Harsh? Yes. But I make the same stipulations to DKs that deathgrip when it isn't necessary (I LIKE it when you pull the caster to me, I hate it when you pull the melee guy so you can dps faster), rogues that stun lock before they get to me, frost mages that freeze them in place before they get to me... you get the point.

Tanking is about controlling the mobs, their positioning, and who they're attacking. Knockback takes that control away from the tank. While in certain situations that can be good -- buy the healer time to bring the tank back up and such -- in many situations it's going to be bad. I have two casters I've just gathered up and you're going to knock them ten feet apart again? My annoyance knows no bounds.

If I trusted that DPSers knew the pulls, knew why I was positioning as I was, and knew to only use knockback in situations where it is beneficial to the group overall, I'd be fine with it. Long experience tanking and healing groups, not to mention experience with how it generally gets used over the last few weeks, has taught me that the chances of that are so vanishingly close to zero as to not really be worth bothering to contemplate.

Thus, I loath knockback with a white hot passion, and ask that it not be used when I'm tanking.

The worst part is that a couple of times now when I've asked someone to not use knockback they've gone ahead and continued to use it. When asked why, they respond something along the lines of their being bored and it "mixes things up".

Hopefully getting /kicked from the group also "mixes things up" for them, I wouldn't want them to be bored.

---

Q u o t e:
We understand the problem here and have heard it from many players, especially tanks. The knockbacks can be useful when leveling or in PvP, but they do annoy some dungeon and raid groups.
We are talking about adding minor glyphs to the spells with knockback effects. They would add some small benefit, cooldown reduction perhaps, in return for removing the knockback.

---

Ty Ghostcrawler. I want to typhoon things in instances, but the tanks won't let me, lol.

---

Q u o t e:
We understand the problem here and have heard it from many players, especially tanks. The knockbacks can be useful when leveling or in PvP, but they do annoy some dungeon and raid groups.
We are talking about adding minor glyphs to the spells with knockback effects. They would add some small benefit, cooldown reduction perhaps, in return for removing the knockback.

---

Meh, honestly, I'd prefer it if they just took them out of the game or put the knockback on their own specific spells they can use in an emergency in pvp or pve, not something folks regularly use in their AoE rotation. If you're in a raid group, and any single person doesn't have that glyph, because they find other ones help them out more, or for whatever reason, then it ruins it for those that do have the glyph. Not to mention all of the folks in a raid that will not take the glyph specifically because they PvP when they don't raid.

Our only other choice is to tank the mobs with their backs to a wall, which I don't like doing, because there are so many ledges and little nooks in the game where I've already seen it multiple times, but the knockbacks put the mob on those small ledges and causes them to evade bug. The amount of spots where mobs can evade out are just unreal.

While it seems like a cool thing for PvP, it's honestly more trouble than it is worth for PvE.

I think glyphing is a nice solution but I personally think the better solution is to simply not have the knockback be a significant portion of DPS contribution/rotation. My understanding at least from the Shaman side is that NOT doing the knockback spell actually hurts DPS.

---

Q u o t e:
I think glyphing is a nice solution but I personally think the better solution is to simply not have the knockback be a significant portion of DPS contribution/rotation. My understanding at least from the Shaman side is that NOT doing the knockback spell actually hurts DPS.

---

It's the elemental's mana resource.

---

Q u o t e:
Yo.

After reading over the forums I've noticed a lot of hate for the ele shaman knockback ability. Does the same apply to a fire mage's Blast Wave ? I haven't had anyone rage at me (yet) for using it, but I run with guildies usually so maybe they're just being polite :P I don't want to mess up anyone's tanking chi, so I'd prefer not to use it if it bothers people !

---

At first, it drove me foaming at the mouth insane.

But now, it's a tool.

Thunderstorm, Typhoon and Blastwave are great for big packs with bad abilities. Combined with Shockwave, you can have up to 10 seconds largely uninterrupted DPS on chosen targets.

It helps a lot if you know its coming too. You can plan around it and use it. We use it to cushion the blow when we're aoe tanking. It interrupts and stops hostile DPS, giving the healers a buffer and the DPS time to kill the key mobs in a pack. This is especially important in the first few seconds of a pull. They don't get knocked so far I can't challenging shout and pull them back and re-secure with a TC. Smart healers and range dps are usually behind the tank anyway.

It is definitely one of those things we call for if we need it, but largely, our shamans, druids and mages can figure out when to use it.

---

Q u o t e:
It's the elemental's mana resource.

---

Ahh right so it would be insane for a shaman NOT to do it. Just one of those unintended consequences.

I think of tanking as an intense card game. I know exactly what cards are in my hand and how much value (threat) each card has. If you knock back several enemies it's like slapping those right out of my hand and expect me to pick them up again in the right order. You've also disrupted the player on my right passing me cards as he lost track of which card I had of the highest value.

Use knock backs on non-elite mobs intended for AoE. Leave the elites alone.

---

Q u o t e:
We understand the problem here and have heard it from many players, especially tanks. The knockbacks can be useful when leveling or in PvP, but they do annoy some dungeon and raid groups.
We are talking about adding minor glyphs to the spells with knockback effects. They would add some small benefit, cooldown reduction perhaps, in return for removing the knockback.

---

I wish a lot of spells could just work different in PvE & PvP. Or at the very least, I wish it was easier to change spells on demand.

I love the extra range on Mind Flay in PvE... but I don't want to give up the snare in PvP... AND I don't want to have to keep buying Glyphs just because I'm going to be running some BGs for a couple hours before running a dungeon. :(

I'm sorry if Scribes think that they won't have any way to make money if people could easily change their glyphs... but this is a broken argument. You've said yourself when describing other broken designs in the game (recently Armor bonus gear for druids)... Fix what's wrong first, then come up with better solutions to problems rather then just keeping bad mechanics in the game.

I don't mind the knockbacks unless I went through a lot of trouble to brind a caster back. Even then I wouldn't usually mind, even if we did get a 2nd group. This is due to Shadowmeld, if a wipe is coming up fast and it's not my fault, I'll use it and let the dps get whats coming to them.

Best racial ever.

---

Q u o t e:
We understand the problem here and have heard it from many players, especially tanks. The knockbacks can be useful when leveling or in PvP, but they do annoy some dungeon and raid groups.
We are talking about adding minor glyphs to the spells with knockback effects. They would add some small benefit, cooldown reduction perhaps, in return for removing the knockback.

---

I like the knockback effects, my only issue is that I don't think the group seems to understand when to use it properly, but thats a communication thing between the groups.

My guildy mage was using blast wave after he saw me use TC in order to ensure that I was getting my threat on first, and then only used it to give the healer a pause to catch up on healing, so I do know that the knockback is a great tool.

Unfortunately, i also ran with a shaman that kept spamming thunderstorm at the beginning of every encouunter, and it was getting difficult to do anything when the mobs are out of range of TC and shockwave, and then the mobs go straight for the shammy. This is a case where I do not like the knockback effects.

I like the idea of adding it in glphs, but the biggest problem with the knockback spells is that people haven't learned to use it situationally and not as a primary AOE spell.

---

Q u o t e:
I've noticed a lot of hate for the ele shaman knockback ability. Does the same apply to a fire mage's Blast Wave ?

---

Add the boomkin Typhoon spell to the list.

I have mixed feelings about them. When I have things under control but you knock things out of my tanking zone, I dislike the abilities.

I've seen occasional uses when a pull is not under control, where a smart player can assist the group by using his knockback to disrupt the pack of mobs. But this only happens when a pull is out of control.

My goal as a tank is to keep things in control at all times, so I hope that my dps will never use those spells.

---

Q u o t e:
I wish a lot of spells could just work different in PvE & PvP. Or at the very least, I wish it was easier to change spells on demand.

---

Wasn't the dual spec option going to change glyphs as well? So if they implemented glyphs that remove the knockback effect (which sounds quite nice in my opinion), you would have that glyph in a PvE spec but not in the PvP spec? Or am I misunderstanding? I haven't found a ton of information on how dual specs is supposed to work exactly.

---

Q u o t e:
We understand the problem here and have heard it from many players, especially tanks. The knockbacks can be useful when leveling or in PvP, but they do annoy some dungeon and raid groups.
We are talking about adding minor glyphs to the spells with knockback effects. They would add some small benefit, cooldown reduction perhaps, in return for removing the knockback.

---

Good idea, let the good people who can actually use knock backs wisely keep it, and let the people who can't get rid of it.