---

Q u o t e:



PROOF - Armor has been nerfed to the point that naxx geared folks will lose about 4k armor. Do you think that's going to get better or worse when someone could have had upgrades from armor accessories which will undoubtedly be even higher as the ilevels progress?

---

Fail. The point was to illustrate our armor scaling far better than any other tank, which it still does (even more so now with the armor available to us). An 'advantage' of like kind to Paladins/Warriors having the 'advantage' of block.

---

Q u o t e:

PROOF - Health and Stam are only helpful to a certain point. After that without proper mitigation and avoidance which we lack we become mana sponges.

---

Fail. For when everything goes smoothly, excess health is not necessary but if for example on a boss like Maexxna where having extra health and armor (not avoidance) allows you to survive her enrage better, health is a boon. Same goes for if a Power Spark is allowed to reach Malygos, his breath and auto attacks already hit extremely hard, having the health to soak that and even be healed is a boon when other mess up. We don't live in perfect raids.

---

Q u o t e:

PROOF - 2 Targets < Infinite Targets (for AS Debuff) - We are still far inferior to T-Clap and our threat is still not matching to the other tanks (Swipe)

---

Fail. Our AoE threat is more than capable of handling groups of mobs, which is all it needs to do. Your comparison also fails because you only picked the one tank with the stronger method of swing slow application and ignored the other tanks to claim Druid inferiority.

---

Q u o t e:

PROOF - Threat beyond the threat needed to hold it is pointless and a waste of item points best suited for defensive stats.

---

Fail. You completely ignored the damage aspect and the convenience of using a Druid tank for faster boss kills on farm content or for bosses with difficult enrage timers that require 110% DPS effort. If all tanks can be kept alive sufficiently (which they all can currently) and you have a hard enrage to tackle, you want the tank with the most DPS output.

---

Q u o t e:

PROOF - Agi which we're now being forced to stack solely translates to dodge and crit which both had their ratings nerfed preLK, in addition, we suffer from diminishing returns so that this stat gets WORSE the more you stack it.

---

Fail. You ignored the fact that I said EVEN WITH DIMINISHING RETURNS we are pushing 55-60% total avoidance in pre-Ulduar gear, an avoidance total we did not even see until mid-late Tier 6 content in TBC. Our avoidance is doing just fine.

---

Q u o t e:

PROOF - We take much more damage than a warrior from magical attacks?

---

Fail. You ignore that we take less damage than other tanks (Paladins and Death Knights) given certain scenarios. Not to mention we received a large buff in going from zero magic mitigation to 12%, thus eliminating a former weakness of Druids. A Warrior mitigating 2% more is not a deal breaker when we have other advantages over them.

---

Q u o t e:

PROOF - 2% mitigation loss is greater than 0% mitigation loss - thanks for the update on your numbers.
GC said this would not be a nerf but even you say it is. Thanks for proving my point.

---

Fail. The difference is a 0.2% change in overall damage taken and requires you to shift your gear a bit to achieve a greater total. Hardly a nerf at all when we're already cresting up to the 90% mark of overall damage avoided/mitigated. I proved nothing more than the change over is barely noticeable and our mitigation/avoidance will only improve with better gear.

---

Q u o t e:

You see what I did there?
Your 'so-called' advantages are just demonstrating how badly engineered we are.

---

Reading comprehension.

---

Q u o t e:

As to Fasc and using Rawr: Rawr has not been verified to be correct for even basic things at the higher ends of lvl 80 content that exist. It still favors things like the polar set of gear as some of the best gear simply because of the huge stamina. The numbers very well may be right, but I would strongly recommend using it as gospel until it has been vetted. Don't get me wrong - I'm a huge advocate of Rawr. But right now, it has some issues.

---

You have to remember that it favors those items due to our insanely good scalar on Stamina and the overall is a conglomeration of Mitigation + Survival + Threat. I always sort the list (not the drop down menus) by mitigation and entirely ignore Threat and somewhat ignore Survival. If I see a mitigation piece that is only a point or two better and offers significantly less health, I'll likely NOT upgrade to it if I think my overall health is dipping too low.

I remember sorting by overall the first time and my jaw dropping when I saw the three Polar pieces significantly higher than all other things.

I just don't see us needing more than 40k health (hell we could get away with less I think) and we get that amount by completely ignoring stamina! The tool works still, just have to manipulate it a bit.

GC, new tank druid here, started in September, reformed from Boomkin since my guild needs tanks and lacks the usual surfeit of warriors. I have a couple quick points.

- I have to go back and solo Ramparts every day for a couple weeks to get my Idol of Terror, because you guys didn't have 3 development minutes to spend on making a new mitigation idol. Thanks for that.

- I like making rogues cry as much as the next player. I mean, who sees a rogue looting and doesn't fondle their pounce key. But it'll get OLD taking their gear all the time and watching them emo their way out of our guilds.

- Less class-specific drops improves the game. But you MUST make classes that end up sharing itemization benefit equally. Right now we are the wrong class for the leather to be assigned to and the wrong class for the jewelry to be assigned to, and in this game, that ain't far from being the wrong class to have in a raid, period, end.

No matter how effectively the class performs its role on paper with the items that you granted it on paper, it has to work as part of the community.

Capisce?

---

Q u o t e:

You have to remember that it favors those items due to our insanely good scalar on Stamina and the overall is a conglomeration of Mitigation + Survival + Threat.

---

No, I understand why Rawr does what it does. What I haven't seen happen is a large community of people verify the base numbers that Rawr has with gear it suggests. It is very likely to have bugs in calculations that have yet to be revealed because of those comparisons. Thus, I would recommend against using it right away for any real comparisons, one way or another.

I would especially recommend against using it to justify a nerf that is not perfectly understood from a calculation perspective.

The sad thing is that right now, Rawr is basically in LFG heroic mode in terms of gear choices, at least as its base value. Stack as much stam as you possibly can - that has to make you a better tank, right? Sigh.

---

Q u o t e:


Maybe you should read my post. I said I don't disagree that druids are fine with regards to being a viable tank. I said that its not fun to play the class and you could quote GC numerous times about how "fun" an ability is and how he wants to make "fun" abilities.

If the "fun" requires our talents to get toned down then so be it... it would not be the first time since Alpha that we were changed for the "better".

---

How is it not fun? Just because we get 50% tank stats and 50% dps stats on our gear?

What if those 50% tank stats are pulling more than their weight to make us more than equal to other tanks?

Think of it this way:

Which would you rather have?
* 1% mitigation
* 1% mitigation and 1% crit

All the other tanks are getting option #1, while we're getting #2. And yet you're complaining?

---

Q u o t e:
Majority of this thread has been saying the same thing and its cool that you have your opinions on the matter, but I suggest you keep them to yourself. No one person would've post more than once in the last five (or so) pages if you had just kept your thoughts to yourself.

Its obvious we can not change your mind and I think GC and the rest of the readers have a good idea of what your thoughts are already.

---

That's an inane suggestion. If that's so, then everyone should shut up. Why should a single poster keep his thoughts to himself while everyone else is free to post what they want? Is it because he disagrees with you? Because that's censorship my friend.

---

Q u o t e:


This nerf at our current level does not make us second class tanks for phycial damage, we are still second class for spell damage and AoE threat but those are different matters completely.

The problem with this nerf is that it will cause that to happen at a later gear level. We basically have been reduced to the 2 scaling stats (stam and agi) and the ilvl of our gear. GC has said that if later on we fell behind they would adjust us to catch up. The problem with this is that I as well as I'm sure many other people here want to scale with our gear rather than at the whim of the devs making mechanic to our talents.

---

Note:
It is not required for a class to use the same amount of stats to scale at the same rate as someone else.

There are various many ways to ensure that a 2stat class scales at the same rate as a 3-5stat class, which Blizzard has already set in place: DR on avoidance, and differing values for each stat.

DR on avoidance is much harsher on other tanks than for us, allowing us to scale at similar rates.
Differing values for each stat allows us to get more bang for our buck, allowing us to scale at similar rates.

This is why we don't need the same amount of stats to equal other tanks.

---

Q u o t e:


No, I understand why Rawr does what it does. What I haven't seen happen is a large community of people verify the base numbers that Rawr has with gear it suggests. It is very likely to have bugs in calculations that have yet to be revealed because of those comparisons. Thus, I would recommend against using it right away for any real comparisons, one way or another.

---

Aside from the armor model, I'm fairly certain the methods Rawr uses to calculate our avoidance and health are all right on the money, including our DR formula. I'll sift through some more EJ posts to see a positive/negative at the moment.

---

Q u o t e:

I would especially recommend against using it to justify a nerf that is not perfectly understood from a calculation perspective.

---

Rawr before the new 3.0.4 calculated Armor dead on and you and I were able to both pin point the discrepancy in armor values, which I adjusted for, so armor isn't an issue. Unless you don't like the DR with avoidance, a valid concern, we should still be able to figure everything up manually and get the same conclusion.

---

Q u o t e:

The sad thing is that right now, Rawr is basically in LFG heroic mode in terms of gear choices, at least as its base value. Stack as much stam as you possibly can - that has to make you a better tank, right? Sigh.

---

Sad but true, anyone using Rawr for the first time is just going to stack to 45k+ health and wonder why they drop like a rock. Hence the mitigation sort tool, thank goodness.

We'll see with more days of testing and prodding where the chips fall. If we're really behind, I'll stand corrected.

---

Q u o t e:

Note:
It is not required for a class to use the same amount of stats to scale at the same rate as someone else.

There are various many ways to ensure that a 2stat class scales at the same rate as a 3-5stat class, which Blizzard has already set in place: DR on avoidance, and differing values for each stat.

DR on avoidance is much harsher on other tanks than for us, allowing us to scale at similar rates.
Differing values for each stat allows us to get more bang for our buck, allowing us to scale at similar rates.

This is why we don't need the same amount of stats to equal other tanks.

---

I got a stupid question on dr being less harsh on us than on the other tanks cause seems DR kicks in for druids about 39% chance to dodge and that's when every thing starts to return less dodge and the 50% is like the cap and i point this out cause then in effect we have the same dr on our dodge as the other tanks since we get 5% from the git go, then 6% from NR and 4% from feral swiftness which means the dodge diminishing returns technically kicks in about 25% which would be the same as all the other tanks right?

---

Q u o t e:
I got a stupid question on dr being less harsh on us than on the other tanks cause seems DR kicks in for druids about 39% chance to dodge and that's when every thing starts to return less dodge and the 50% is like the cap and i point this out cause then in effect we have the same dr on our dodge as the other tanks since we get 5% from the git go, then 6% from NR and 4% from feral swiftness which means the dodge diminishing returns technically kicks in about 25% which would be the same as all the other tanks right?

---

1) DR only affects avoidance gains from stats.
http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t29453-combat_ratings_level_80_a/

---

Q u o t e:

Avoidance stats now have diminishing returns
This includes:
1. Dodge from Dodge Rating, Defense, Agility.
2. Parry from Parry Rating, Defense.
3. Chance to be missed from Defense.

---

This means that base dodge, as well as any avoidance you gain from talents is unaffected by the DR. (Note that other tanks get a similar 10% avoidance in talents, and if talents were affected by DR, they would be hit much worse than us).

2) DR starts at 0%. You just don't see major differences because there's not much to diminish.

---

Q u o t e:

How is it not fun? Just because we get 50% tank stats and 50% dps stats on our gear?

What if those 50% tank stats are pulling more than their weight to make us more than equal to other tanks?

Think of it this way:

Which would you rather have?
* 1% mitigation
* 1% mitigation and 1% crit

All the other tanks are getting option #1, while we're getting #2. And yet you're complaining?


That's an inane suggestion. If that's so, then everyone should shut up. Why should a single poster keep his thoughts to himself while everyone else is free to post what they want? Is it because he disagrees with you? Because that's censorship my friend.

---

The other tanks do not just get mitigation. Strength goes into both threat/dmg and mitigation. As does block value. Weren't you just crying about how druids are ignoring advantages? How about the fact that NOTHING they get is wasted. Str and SBV are both mitigation and threat. Everything else is mitigation.

Please, stop being a douchebag. If anyone here is going ape%!*% at people who disagree it is you. You literally argue against everyone but yourself. The thread, JUST LIKE THE POTP ONES ON BETA, is turning into a Fasc vs. every other person thread. Once again, stop being a d-bag.

---

Q u o t e:

How is it not fun? Just because we get 50% tank stats and 50% dps stats on our gear?

What if those 50% tank stats are pulling more than their weight to make us more than equal to other tanks?

Think of it this way:

Which would you rather have?
* 1% mitigation
* 1% mitigation and 1% crit

All the other tanks are getting option #1, while we're getting #2. And yet you're complaining?

---

How is it not fun? Because the leather gear I'm taking might give me a benefit of maybe 5 (arbitrary number), but it gives a rogue a benefit of 8. Our gear does not benefit us as much as it benefits someone else almost all the time because 1) its not made for us and 2) we only have two stats to work with.

Anyways.. where do you come from telling me whats fun for me? I will complain if its not fun for me, whats burning your balls?

You know what bud? If you feel that getting 1% extra crit when no one is pulling off you w/o it is a benefit then you can have that benefit. I would prefer 1.01% mitigation over 1% mitigation and 1% crit when NO ONE CAN PULL OFF ME ANYWAYS.

Why are we getting dps stats? I believe hybrids are supposed to be a thing of the past. If you spec for something you should do that one thing. Prot dps has been increased enough so that all tanks can put out some decent dps. If its blizzards intention to give us the highest dps then I'll trade that in for some tanking stats because guess what... if I have 500 higher dps than our prot warrior, then we are back to bc days where we are sat to dps because we can do higher dps.

I'm not saying give me everything and increase my options. I'm saying take some of the baked in talents and replace that with conversions and new stats so.. you know... ITS ACTUALLY WORTH /ROLLING ON GEAR <3.

---

Q u o t e:

That's an inane suggestion. If that's so, then everyone should shut up. Why should a single poster keep his thoughts to himself while everyone else is free to post what they want? Is it because he disagrees with you? Because that's censorship my friend.

---

What did I say? I said everyone would've shut up after one post if he did not reply to every single post there was. People reply to posts to make a point. His point was made 4 pages ago and thats why I suggested that. He did not listen to me and I don't really care about that. I don't own the person. I said what I felt... according to your own views how can you tell me that I said something wrong? I don't really feel like making this a me vs you thing, so I'll end this one with what I told the other person:

Its cool that you have your opinions and likings. They don't match mine and I'm going to post mine. I've already said that its np for a druid to tank because I do it regularly. What I'm saying is that me and the a lot of the feral druid community feels that its not that fun to gear up anymore because it doesn't do us as much good as it does another person. The fact that GC could say something like we should roll on gear with block rating because its only a few stats that are being wasted is complete bs and horrible design. If they don't want to make gear for us, then they should at least treat us like everyone else and give us ways to find the gear useful.

---

Q u o t e:

1) DR only affects avoidance gains from stats.
http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t29453-combat_ratings_level_80_a/


This means that base dodge, as well as any avoidance you gain from talents is unaffected by the DR. (Note that other tanks get a similar 10% avoidance in talents, and if talents were affected by DR, they would be hit much worse than us).

---

Looks like what i said is true then
k C_p 1/C_p C_d 1/C_d Lv80 Dodge/Agi Lv80 Agi/1%Dodge Base Dodge
Warrior 0.9560 47.003525 0.021275 88.129021 0.011347 0.013600 73.52941176 3.463600
Paladin 0.9560 47.003525 0.021275 88.129021 0.011347 0.019200 52.08333333 3.268500
Hunter 0.9880 145.560408 0.006870 145.560408 0.006870 0.013300 75.18796992 -5.450000
Rogue 0.9880 145.560408 0.006870 145.560408 0.006870 0.024100 41.49377593 -0.590000
Priest 0.9530 0 0 150.375940 0.006650 0.019200 52.08333333 3.183000
Deathknight 0.9560 47.003525 0.021275 88.129021 0.011347 0.013600 73.52941176 3.463600
Shaman 0.9880 145.560408 0.006870 145.560408 0.006870 0.019200 52.08333333 1.675000
Mage 0.9530 0 0 150.375940 0.006650 0.019500 51.28205128 3.457500
Warlock 0.9530 0 0 150.375940 0.006650 0.019200 52.08333333 2.035000
Druid 0.9720 0 0 116.890707 0.008555 0.024000 41.66666667 4.951000

---

Q u o t e:

Looks like what i said is true then
k C_p 1/C_p C_d 1/C_d Lv80 Dodge/Agi Lv80 Agi/1%Dodge Base Dodge
Warrior 0.9560 47.003525 0.021275 88.129021 0.011347 0.013600 73.52941176 3.463600
Paladin 0.9560 47.003525 0.021275 88.129021 0.011347 0.019200 52.08333333 3.268500
Hunter 0.9880 145.560408 0.006870 145.560408 0.006870 0.013300 75.18796992 -5.450000
Rogue 0.9880 145.560408 0.006870 145.560408 0.006870 0.024100 41.49377593 -0.590000
Priest 0.9530 0 0 150.375940 0.006650 0.019200 52.08333333 3.183000
Deathknight 0.9560 47.003525 0.021275 88.129021 0.011347 0.013600 73.52941176 3.463600
Shaman 0.9880 145.560408 0.006870 145.560408 0.006870 0.019200 52.08333333 1.675000
Mage 0.9530 0 0 150.375940 0.006650 0.019500 51.28205128 3.457500
Warlock 0.9530 0 0 150.375940 0.006650 0.019200 52.08333333 2.035000
Druid 0.9720 0 0 116.890707 0.008555 0.024000 41.66666667 4.951000

---

And by all this, you mean?

To clarify: Neither of your posts are very clear at all.

---

Q u o t e:


The other tanks do not just get mitigation. Strength goes into both threat/dmg and mitigation. As does block value. Weren't you just crying about how druids are ignoring advantages? How about the fact that NOTHING they get is wasted. Str and SBV are both mitigation and threat. Everything else is mitigation.

---

Again: it really means little that STR and SBV pulls double duty, if the overall value of these items are about equal. Is STR giving you as much mitigation as Defense? No, it isn't.

Clearly, each stat has its own value in each department, and clearly not every stat is as good as the next for mitigation or threat. Therefore, just because stats are wasted for druids while none are wasted for warriors does not mean that druids are inherently worse off.

---

Q u o t e:
Please, stop being a douchebag. If anyone here is going ape%!*% at people who disagree it is you. You literally argue against everyone but yourself. The thread, JUST LIKE THE POTP ONES ON BETA, is turning into a Fasc vs. every other person thread. Once again, stop being a d-bag.

---

1) I'm not Fasc. Taurens look very different from NEs.
2) Just because I'm in the minority with a dissenting opinion does not mean that the majority should rule and tell the minority to shut up. Honestly now, this is a discussion forum, not a facist website.
3) Honestly, you guys haven't brought up any proof showing that druids will be terribly scaled in Ulduar and beyond content. You have a warrior. You should know enough about warrior mechanics to bring up some numbers to compare with Fasc's.

As far as I'm concerned, minority and majority have zero relevance on who should and should not be heard in terms of functionality. True, these things may not be "fun" (which I believe that everyone only jumped on because GC said so), in which case the majority opinion should rule. But that's not the main point here. The main point is that our functionality should equal that of other tanks, in which case it is a numerical debate, and so far there have been no numbers brought to the table. Without them, you have no backing with which to defend your arguments.

---

Q u o t e:

Again: it really means little that STR and SBV pulls double duty, if the overall value of these items are about equal. Is STR giving you as much mitigation as Defense? No, it isn't.

Clearly, each stat has its own value in each department, and clearly not every stat is as good as the next for mitigation or threat. Therefore, just because stats are wasted for druids while none are wasted for warriors does not mean that druids are inherently worse off.


1) I'm not Fasc. Taurens look very different from NEs.
2) Just because I'm in the minority with a dissenting opinion does not mean that the majority should rule and tell the minority to shut up. Honestly now, this is a discussion forum, not a facist website.
3) Honestly, you guys haven't brought up any proof showing that druids will be terribly scaled in Ulduar and beyond content. You have a warrior. You should know enough about warrior mechanics to bring up some numbers to compare with Fasc's.

As far as I'm concerned, minority and majority have zero relevance on who should and should not be heard in terms of functionality. True, these things may not be "fun" (which I believe that everyone only jumped on because GC said so), in which case the majority opinion should rule. But that's not the main point here. The main point is that our functionality should equal that of other tanks, in which case it is a numerical debate, and so far there have been no numbers brought to the table. Without them, you have no backing with which to defend your arguments.

---

1. True. Don't know why anyone would say that.
2. True. Don't want you to shut up just don't think that you've made any points that are vastly more valid than some of the others here.
3. My argument is about fun and about how we use loot and stats. To me it is inherently less fun to get stuff which isn't as useful to you as others and face potential drama and stuff over the fact you got it or didn't get it.

So by your own confessions this is not a numbers argument any longer but an argument over diminished fun so no one needs to bring any further stats.

How can any of you argue about it making us scale less or not? The point is that GC has already said that they will tweak us if we do not scale. WE DO NOT NEED TO WORRY ABOUT OUR PERFORMANCE. If it honestly stays like it is now where all the tanks can tank and are comparable to each other, functionality is fine.

Fun on the other hand is an issue here and it is a big part of this game. People don't solely gear to raid... they also like to watch themselves get better and if I can get better with subpar gear and my spec then its not really fun to spend 4 hours a night, 4 days a week + heroics + 10 mans. Its just commiting yourself to 15 dollars a month and seeing minimal benefits. Thats my view on this situation, at least.

---

Q u o t e:

Again: it really means little that STR and SBV pulls double duty, if the overall value of these items are about equal. Is STR giving you as much mitigation as Defense? No, it isn't.

Clearly, each stat has its own value in each department, and clearly not every stat is as good as the next for mitigation or threat. Therefore, just because stats are wasted for druids while none are wasted for warriors does not mean that druids are inherently worse off.

---

Your point was druids had an advantage because their tanking gear gives both mitigaion and threat. Mine was that the other tanks do too, so you were wrong. In addition, other tanks have more than one way (excepting DKs) to scale their mitigation - note not avoidance - whereas we only have one. Warriors can also critically block, something I am nearly 100% sure was not taken into account yet.

---

Q u o t e:
1) I'm not Fasc. Taurens look very different from NEs.
2) Just because I'm in the minority with a dissenting opinion does not mean that the majority should rule and tell the minority to shut up. Honestly now, this is a discussion forum, not a facist website.
3) Honestly, you guys haven't brought up any proof showing that druids will be terribly scaled in Ulduar and beyond content. You have a warrior. You should know enough about warrior mechanics to bring up some numbers to compare with Fasc's.

As far as I'm concerned, minority and majority have zero relevance on who should and should not be heard in terms of functionality. True, these things may not be "fun" (which I believe that everyone only jumped on because GC said so), in which case the majority opinion should rule. But that's not the main point here. The main point is that our functionality should equal that of other tanks, in which case it is a numerical debate, and so far there have been no numbers brought to the table. Without them, you have no backing with which to defend your arguments.

---

You have brought numbers about druids, without comparing properly to other classes. From these numbers, only for druids, you conclude everything is ok. Both sides are running off of nothing so get off the high horse.

Again, being a douchebag ("I believe people are only saying it isn't fun because GC brought it up"). People have been saying it for a long time there chief, sorry you cannot decide for other people what is fun and what isn't.

Which leads to the next point. I do not know enough about warriors yet to comment, seeing as I am a recent reroll from feral because - get this - I WAS NOT HAVING FUN. I am glad you like being band-aid fixed to tank in other classes gear. That is not fun. You are in the minority. If the majority believes it is no longer fun, guess what - You are, in fact, wrong and something SHOULD be changed (which you do thankfully acknowledge). I may get around to trying to model warrior mitigation but that wont happen until I am done with school this week (two tests tomorrow)...

i don't understand this in the least i feel as if you are omitting the fact druids lack parry and block, which account for a quite a bit in terms of mitigation, furthermore magic based damage, cannot be mitigated via armor or dodge, and this alone puts us at a disadvantage versus warrior and paladins(since espicaly warriors simply from a potential 16% versus our 12% in additon to spell reflect), as for death knights i don't know have yet seen one tank

i also understand that the larger health pool is basically a method of sponging damage, but here in lies an issue, if i have 60k health and a raid boss is hitting me for say 16k a swing
compared to the protection warrior/paladin with 30k health and getting hit for 10k who would the healer(s) have a harder time healing? the druid of course. this is really my biggest concern, we have no where near the mitigation of a protection warrior or paladin, yet we have more health, and for those of us who know what it is to be a tank will tell you, mitigation = total health , not total health > Mitigation or vice versa

tanking heroics right now i feel like i am wearing cloth compared to most of the warriors or paladins i have ran with in the same instances

i mean if i can say one thing for you and tigole, GC you always keep up us to date and always read the feedback, i am certain a lot of people are thankful for it