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Q u o t e:
if hunters get their pve dps nerfed to all hell, i expect the rogues and arms warriors owning up the meters with them to be nerfed as well.

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Here's a novel idea: You say hunter dps is high? OR are you saying your (insert class here) dps is too low? As a player base why do we get on here and holler "NERF such and such" instead of "Fix my class and make it as good as (insert class here)".

No one wants to be nerfed even if it is "needed". One reason is that historically Blizzard has a reputation of swinging a lil to hard with the nerf bat. AND when they finally figure out that they did so it takes em far longer to get around to fixing the "over nerf" than anyone would like.

At this point the way hunter mechanics works, Blizz can either nerf us into the ground PvE wise or we will remain at the top of the damage meters. Blizz just got through with a xpac and I don't see them seriously taking on an entire rewrite of the hunter class.

Let's say you try to level out hunter's steady / auto (lowering Steady damage) damage by upping instant shots (aimed / arcane / chimera or explosive) damage. To make this viable and keep us up at or near the top of those PvE charts our instants would have to hit A LOT harder than they currently do; either that or have their cool downs significantly reduced. Doing that would give us so much burst that we would, i dare say, be OP PvP wise.

Hunter's are tailor made for PvE raid boss encounters which tend to be mostly stand and shoot. Have been for a long time. LOCKS were but NOW THEY ARE BROKEN. FIX THE LOCKS (and mages too id needed) but please just leave us alone.

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Q u o t e:
Logo, shut up.. I can't believe you're agreeing with this moron.. You think these parsers are actually what will happen in all raids? If you do, you are a moron. Ghostcrawler already posted in that other topic that "hunter dps is still competetive for top" meaning OTHER CLASSES GET FIRST.. serious @@#!.. calling out one class to get nerfed over one set of parsers is beyond ridiculous.. especially when you dont provide us enough evidence when it comes to gear and stuff.. Plus, you might just suck, and are talented wrong like someone posted.. Blues have made it clear many times that skill is a huge factor in getting top dps..

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While I agree that konwing how to play the game, and gear yourself is a large factor in DPS< but seriously... Skill? This is WOW we are talking about here. Skill is not a factor, unless you are just dumber then a box of rocks

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Q u o t e:
Hunter pve dps is definitely something we're keeping an eye on. It's high and perhaps too high, but we need to see some more players raiding first.

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lols. what where you expecting?? it was comletely off the charts for the last half of TBC, including most of BT raiding and certainly all of sunwell. only rogues with very specific gear, and only on specific fights, and only with a perfect melee grp designed to support them... would just come CLOSE to hunters, yet not beat them

now you buffed them all to hell for wrath... i mean they can close their eyes, put points randomly into ANY of three trees, and come out with a legit dps spec.

of course they are going to be outdpsing everyone by 1000 or whatever. only difference is perhaps now not all are BM and have to "work" a bit harder then placing their drink on top of the key with the steadyshot/kill automacro.

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Q u o t e:

We've kinda been posting this all through Beta and into release. AutoShot and SteadyShot account for 60% or more of Hunter PvE dps....... but try parsing PvP? They drop to less than 20%.
Our immobile dps is what's rocking PvE and what's killing us in PvP.

Reduce SteadyShot damage or something, Buff our on-the-move damage!

...
Repeated for emphasis.

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This is a pretty good idea. This would help hunters in the arena while putting their pve damage back down to being competitive.

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Q u o t e:
NO, Blues stated several times that usually top dps will rely on skill if gear is comparable.. This dude didnt even post everyones gear.... Hell, a few stated he's not even speced right for top talent and people agree with him? Why isnt the hunter in 5th second? Cause skill played a factor. Yet he just calls the "waaaaambulance" and GC answers. GC like i said stated, hunters are still very competetive for top dps.. meaning, there are obvious others.. Ive seen people post a ton of topics with other classes @1, Warlocks,mages, hunters, warriors, rogues, and boomkins(why? hybrid why?).. seriously.. you're even whining about the shaman.. ridiculous.

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There is no Skill in WOW

Skill != knowing what 3 or 4 buttons to push in a particular order

You have to be dumber then a box of rocks not to understand or figure out any class/spec dps rotation within 10 mins max of play time.

I agree with no info on gear, thats a problem, but even Blizz is lame if they think anything but comparable gear is a factor in anything but wildly strange parses, which happens when you have idiots that, for instance, dont know Steady Shot is suppose to be used. Things like that are the only factor outside of gear that really make a big impact on DPS.

Also what your talking about is NOT skill, is lack of knowledge. Again their is Zero skill involved in pressing 3-4-5 buttons in a particular order

:)

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Q u o t e:


lols. what where you expecting?? it was comletely off the charts for the last half of TBC, including most of BT raiding and certainly all of sunwell. only rogues with very specific gear, and only on specific fights, and only with a perfect melee grp designed to support them... would just come CLOSE to hunters, yet not beat them

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/sigh it depended alot on the particular fight in question. Guess you weren't happy with the fights you "lost" on? OR maybe you just aren't that good?

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Q u o t e:
now you buffed them all to hell for wrath... i mean they can close their eyes, put points randomly into ANY of three trees, and come out with a legit dps spec.

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/sigh tells me you have zero clue about the hunter class

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Q u o t e:
of course they are going to be outdpsing everyone by 1000 or whatever. only difference is perhaps now not all are BM and have to "work" a bit harder then placing their drink on top of the key with the steadyshot/kill automacro.

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/sigh so we now have TWO viable classes to play. DAMN US TO HELL FOR THAT. And yeah no more macro BM can just spam one key, Steady Shot, while MM basically spams Steady and hits Chimera when off cool down. I don't play a rogue or any other class for that matter but do other classes hit all that more buttons? WOW is so HAAARRDD!!!

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Q u o t e:
We definitely don't think it's a good design to inflate a whole class in PvE if they are weak in PvP or vice versa. If hunters are weak in PvP, as many of the hunters suspect, then we want to handle that as a separate issue. A Steady Shot nerf for example, would have less impact on PvP than reducing dps across the board, and we would certainly be prepared to compensate hunters in other ways for PvP.

Again, we have not announced any changes. There is no hotfix incoming. We don't think this is a hotfix worthy issue. Standard caveats to all that apply.

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I sorry GC, but I'm getting sick of this rethoric. The majority of PvP Hunters have been giving you some fantastic input on our problems. And you tell us to wait until after season 6 to see where we stand, because you need solid numbers to see how things play out.

Now we got this QQ post stating we do too much dps in PvE, and you jump right in and say yes, we are. What happened to your wait and see approach?

Makes me absolutely infuriated, that you are so unwilling to do anything but be condisending to our PvP concerns. But you are so quick to chime up to a call to nerf our PvE viability, becuase we are at the top of the sustained dps charts.

This is nothing short of being hypocritical, period.

So what happened to your wait and see approach? Guess it doesn't count when people call to nerf Hunters, just gotta jump right on that bandwagon.

TL;DR
GC doesn't care if we Hunters fail. He'll nerf us long before buffing us it seems.


Edit: Typos. Fustration and typing don't mix.

Nerf steady shot into the ground if you have to.

Just make sure you buff our instants to match.

Like explosive shot.

Without the aoe.

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Q u o t e:


I sorry GC, but I'm getting sick of this rethoric. The majority of PvP Hunters have been giving you some fantastic input on our problems. And you tell us to wait until after season 6 to see where we stand, because you need solid numbers to see how things play out.

Now we got this QQ post stating we do too much dps in PvE, and you jump right in and say yes, we are. What happened to you wait and see approach?

Makes me absolutely infuriated, that you are so unwilling to do anything but be condisending to our PvP concerns. But you are so quick to chime up to a call to nerf our PvE viability, becuase we are at the top of the sustained dps charts.

This is nothing short of being hypocritical, period.

So what happened to your wait and see approach? Guess it doesn't count when people call to nerf Hunters, just gotta jump right on that bandwagon.

TL;DL
GC doesn't care if we Hunters fail. He'll nerf us long before buffing us it seems.

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GC has posted multiple times, talking about a very simple problem with the PvP balance:

PvP is much tougher to model out than PvE is, simply because half of a PvE fight is computer controlled. Which is tougher or better is completely seperate, but as shown you can spreadsheet out PvE damage fairly easily while PvP performance is really only showable by doing a ton of arenas and watching the result.

If Blizzard didn't want to buff hunters in PvP, GC wouldn't keep saying they would if necessary. They would just tell you to clam up. Once you see more hunters in the actual 80 arena bracket in actual 80 arena gear you'll see more and more attention paid to the issue. On the other hand, Microsoft Excel can reliably recreate optimal raid conditions, and a smart theorycrafter can account for lost DPS time due to several factors, at least enough to get a good idea.

Patience.

There are two core problems prohibiting Hunters from getting the attention they need to be viable in pvp.

One, the developers don't understand the complexities of Hunter pvp and snicker at 'huntards', not realizing how much more skill is required compared to other classes.

Two, the developers have a 'vision' for the hunter class - it's this vision that keeps hunters fundamentally flawed and weak in pvp settings. This 'vision' includes being worthless auto-attack bots in melee range, having a squishy pet with little synergy with the hunter, being fundamentally designed to lose to melee classes and ANY OTHER caster class that wants to get in melee range of them, and traps being defensive with 'arming times' to make them even more worthless than totems.

Thus hunters will always be on the receiving end of abilities that sound promising, but have 5 laughably crippling drawbacks that make them useless. That number of abilities is enormous and keeps piling up, 45+ keybinds and counting. Our class is literally drowning in terrible abilities that have half the power of what they should do, but still take up just as much GCD time.

Hunters will always be fundamentally flawed and broken in pvp in WoW, the developers will make sure of it, by incompetence (they have no clue about high level hunter pvp), malice (snickering about huntards), and stubbornness (our 'vision' for the class).

Why do you think all of the 2400+ rated hunters already gave up and rerolled DKs during the beta, after giving pages and pages of quality feedback and even arena video footage?

1. We are near useless in melee range. We spend more GCDs trying to escape melee range than we do on offense. Every class in the game knows to run up in the hunters face and /laugh.
2. Our mobile damage is terrible and we are the most affected by LoS when standing still to fire.
3. Our pets have almost no survivability or synergy with the Hunter, and they take too much time and energy to rez.
4. Going into AOTV means losing dodge bonus (that was taken away from our base) and a huge damage penalty on top of that.
5. Our traps are defensive oriented with arming time, making them a joke to avoid.
6. We have no caster mitigation, and Deterrence is a joke to melee classes that know to get behind us.
7. We need 40+ keybinds for mediocre abilities just to have a chance at competing. Our GCD flow feels sluggish and underpowered compared to other classes with a smaller set of far more powerful abilities.
8. Our mana drain is more valuable than any damage or utility we can contribute to a high rated team.

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Q u o t e:
There are two core problems prohibiting Hunters from getting the attention they need to be viable in pvp.

One, the developers don't understand the complexities of Hunter pvp and snicker at 'huntards', not realizing how much more skill is required compared to other classes.

Two, the developers have a 'vision' for the hunter class - it's this vision that keeps hunters fundamentally flawed and weak in pvp settings. This 'vision' includes being worthless auto-attack bots in melee range, having a squishy pet with little synergy with the hunter, being fundamentally designed to lose to melee classes and ANY OTHER caster class that wants to get in melee range of them, and traps being defensive with 'arming times' to make them even more worthless than totems.

Thus hunters will always be on the receiving end of abilities that sound promising, but have 5 laughably crippling drawbacks that make them useless. That number of abilities is enormous and keeps piling up, 45+ keybinds and counting. Our class is literally drowning in terrible abilities that have half the power of what they should do, but still take up just as much GCD time.

Hunters will always be fundamentally flawed and broken in pvp in WoW, the developers will make sure of it, by incompetence (they have no clue about high level hunter pvp), malice (snickering about huntards), and stubbornness (our 'vision' for the class).

Why do you think all of the 2400+ rated hunters already gave up and rerolled DKs during the beta, after giving pages and pages of quality feedback and even arena video footage?

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This is precisely what they talk about when they talk about 'stuff we don't need in the new role forums'. If this is your attitude, there's nothing anyone can do to convince you otherwise. We're done here, folks - time to go home. The Devs hate us and there's nothing we can do to convince them, because they hate us and are evil.

Demonizing the devs may make you feel better, but it doesn't fix anything. This sort of discussion needs to stop, although the rest of this thread was pretty good.

Sorry if the hard truth about why Shamans and Hunters remain terrible in pvp hurts. Well at least they couldn't screw up Resto shamans so bad that they were unable to compete.

Can you think of any other reason why after years they are still fundamentally broken classes in pvp?