GC at least let us have some aspect of the game we can shine in >.<

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Q u o t e:


Sad but true. In PVE, the only thing we have going for us is our damage. Most "pure" classes face that problem, but hunters are hit especially hard considering we no longer bring a special buff/debuff to the raid and have absolutely zero utility (CC, HS, food, portals/summoning, whatever) compared to other ranged DPS.

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TSA, FI and Replenishment, not to mention Misdirect. Considering Surv is bad for pretty much everything right now, you can ignore Replen. TSA remains one of the best raid buffs in the game and hunters only need to spend one point to get it whereas enhance shamans need to spend 5. Not to mention that, even without TSA, marks is pretty competitive for raid dps atm. FI is only useful if you don't have a ret pally, which pretty much every raid has a ret pally, but it's there.

You can buy food and water, you can walk to instances, but you can't get 10% AP w/out a shaman or a hunter.

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Q u o t e:
GC at least let us have some aspect of the game we can shine in >.<

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This is a bad point to argue. No class should be OP in PvE dps, no matter how they are for the rest of the game. Making this argument is akin to admitting that hunters are OP in PvE dps. The devs will not stand for this and WILL nerf us.

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Q u o t e:
Hunter pve dps is definitely something we're keeping an eye on. It's high and perhaps too high, but we need to see some more players raiding first.

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If my explosive shot starts to tic for 200, I'm not going to be happy.

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TSA, FI and Replenishment, not to mention Misdirect. Considering Surv is bad for pretty much everything right now, you can ignore Replen. TSA remains one of the best raid buffs in the game and hunters only need to spend one point to get it whereas enhance shamans need to spend 5. Not to mention that, even without TSA, marks is pretty competitive for raid dps atm. FI is only useful if you don't have a ret pally, which pretty much every raid has a ret pally, but it's there.

You can buy food and water, you can walk to instances, but you can't get 10% AP w/out a shaman or a hunter.

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ever checkout what a dk can do?

And what your saying is that go mm or don't come to the raid/?

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Q u o t e:
Hunter pve dps is definitely something we're keeping an eye on. It's high and perhaps too high, but we need to see some more players raiding first.

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Thanks GC. Have you looked at Destro/Demo locks, Frost/Arcane mages at all? Their DPS is pretty low ATM.

I dont expect to see Demo DPS jump to affliction levels as its maintainence efforts are pretty low, but destro needs work. Also, Heigan and pets, could you make the Damage on that fight be able to be affected by the pet Avoidance stat?

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This is a bad point to argue. No class should be OP in PvE dps, no matter how they are for the rest of the game. Making this argument is akin to admitting that hunters are OP in PvE dps. The devs will not stand for this and WILL nerf us.

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You are under the assumption they nerf classes because people ask them to, QQing, or because hunter's say they are the best (etc...). I am quite sure they do not actually listen to people complaining. They probably run their own test and observe raw numbers to decide how to adjust a class (or a specific ability).

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Q u o t e:


This is a bad point to argue. No class should be OP in PvE dps, no matter how they are for the rest of the game. Making this argument is akin to admitting that hunters are OP in PvE dps. The devs will not stand for this and WILL nerf us.

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Well sounds like that's likely to happen anyway from the tone of GC's post. Forgive my outburst, but four seasons of sucking dirt in arena tends to make me a little possessive of any advantages our class might have at the moment.

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TSA, FI and Replenishment, not to mention Misdirect. Considering Surv is bad for pretty much everything right now, you can ignore Replen. TSA remains one of the best raid buffs in the game and hunters only need to spend one point to get it whereas enhance shamans need to spend 5. Not to mention that, even without TSA, marks is pretty competitive for raid dps atm. FI is only useful if you don't have a ret pally, which pretty much every raid has a ret pally, but it's there.

You can buy food and water, you can walk to instances, but you can't get 10% AP w/out a shaman or a hunter.

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You pretty much proved my point. I said we do not have anything special to bring to a raid. FI, Pally. Replenisment, SPriest or Pally. TSA, Shaman. Etc, etc. I was referring to how Survival had Expose Weakness gutted, and Marks had Imp HM equally nerfed. Those were two biggies. With the new "bring the player not the class/spec" system in place, something still needs to exist to justify a hunter's presence... because a raid will just "bring a X" in a hunter's place for top-notch damage output, or the fact that they're a Boomkin and can battle res or pinch-heal or...

I know, it's too early to call, but considering how hunters get shafted here, there, and over there (and everything adds up)... it's hard not to think the sky is about to fall.

Just... don't nerf hunters in PVE where it will carry over to PVP. I PVE, and a nerf will hurt, but I don't wish it on my fellow hunters who happen to PVP.

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Q u o t e:


You are under the assumption they nerf classes because people ask them to, QQing, or because hunter's say they are the best (etc...). I am quite sure they do not actually listen to people complaining. They probably run their own test and observe raw numbers to decide how to adjust a class (or a specific ability).

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You can look at the forums as a barometer really. Normally there are average complaints, Loot issues, Raider vs Casual, Brann Bronzebeard wont stop sending me tabards etc. But occasionaly you see high constant spikes of issues. Ie. Ret recently.

While you may not think your class is OP, there likely is an issue if you stay consistantly on the radar with a high ammount of complaints against you.

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Q u o t e:


You can look at the forums as a barometer really. Normally there are average complaints, Loot issues, Raider vs Casual, Brann Bronzebeard wont stop sending me tabards etc. But occasionaly you see high constant spikes of issues. Ie. Ret recently.

While you may not think your class is OP, there likely is an issue if you stay consistantly on the radar with a high ammount of complaints against you.

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This! A smart alt!

As usual, PvP screws up PvE. That's why you end up with everyone QQing all over themselves about how OP Arcane mages are in PvP, meanwhile they can't even remotely keep up in PvE while spec'd arcane.

And poor rogues are suffering hard now, but it's hard to buff them for PvE without making them OP in PvP.

Hunters DESTROY everyone else in the charts in PvE, but still get rolled over by nearly ever other class in PvP.

BOO TO PVP. :)

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Q u o t e:


You can look at the forums as a barometer really. Normally there are average complaints, Loot issues, Raider vs Casual, Brann Bronzebeard wont stop sending me tabards etc. But occasionaly you see high constant spikes of issues. Ie. Ret recently.

While you may not think your class is OP, there likely is an issue if you stay consistantly on the radar with a high ammount of complaints against you.

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Oh I believe if they see 1800 post about Ret paladins they look at the numbers. I also feel they would have looked at it anyway (under that example). Are we OP as hunters in PvE? I dunno, but on live and in beta Moonkin's have been keeping up with us in DPS; are they OP too? To be honest, if we are constantly topping DPS charts for all fights then it may need adjusting, I was just saying originally that hunter's (or any class) coming on the forums saying "We are the best DPS EVER!" will not make the devs nerf the class.

Edit: The opposite is true as well. Having rogues and mages (as an example) coming on saying nerf hunters in PvE will not make them do it either. It is pretty straight forward, either we are too high of DPS or they are too low. An adjustment will be done if deemed necessary, not because people want (or do not want) them done.

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Q u o t e:
Hunter pve dps is definitely something we're keeping an eye on.

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Just out of curiousity, how do you do this? I'm assuming you have reporting software running on the servers, but you requested parses during the beta, in the D&R forums. Was that feature not available during beta, or did you just want to spark some conversation?

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It's high and perhaps too high, but we need to see some more players raiding first.

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Based on these parses anyway, BM appears to be very high, but MM lags a little relative to BM (and I'm guessing Surv would have lagged even more). Maybe a DPS rebalancing for the trees is in order?

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This! A smart alt!

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If I could post on the account with my main on it I would :p. You post enough, and long enough on the forums you will get banned. Unless you become a green, and then the key is not to post much at all and to avoid key issues.

Everyone gets inflamed and impassioned at times, and its understandable.

The key here is double think, what is good for you and what is good for blizzard are things you have to keep in your mind and weigh with equal effort at the same time.

Player X wants amazing PvP burst DPS. Well players dont like to be bursted, they want time to fight and PvP. Blizzard states they dont want burst...so find a compremise that gives you a split of 30:70 or 40:60 you to them.

As a lock I know that being 500-1k over other Caster DPS wont ever happen again. I cant ask for it, its not worth trying to ask for it. I know blizzard wants to keep shards. Negotiate what you can.


EDIT:

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Q u o t e:
I dunno, but on live and in beta Moonkin's have been keeping up with us in DPS; are they OP too? To be honest, if we are constantly topping DPS charts for all fights then it may need adjusting, I was just saying originally that hunter's (or any class) coming on the forums saying "We are the best DPS EVER!" will not make the devs nerf the class.

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Nah, Moonkins dont, go look up Simcraft the EJ mod. They run oom at about 2% of the time in a 300 second sustained boss fight. They're not bad on trash, but they're nothing special on a boss besides applying EnM keeping me from having to CoE. Imo, Id take the DK.

FK FK FK FKF KF KFKFFKKFKF

I knew this would happen.

Incoming PvE DPS neutering that takes a giant steamy crap on our PvP damage.

Good lord please stop crying "NERF HUNTERS!" or "NERF ANY CLASS" for that matter. It's PvE, so who really cares??? Did you kill the boss? That's all that matters IMO.

Oh and I don't PvP at all. I play to raid, period. And I can care less who is topping the meters, be it hunter, mage, lock, rogue, boomkins, ect... As long as bosses drop does it really matter. I'm more of a bring the player, not the class type for whatever thats worth.

For the time being the content difficulty if so laughable that it really doesnt matter at all what classes you bring tbh. I think Blizz said somewhere that they didn't plan on making any thing as "hard" as the Sunwell anymore (forgive me if that is wrong). If all the new content (T8 and beyond) is as easy to do as the T7 then just be happy with what ya have or reroll annd collect your bloody purples.

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You pretty much proved my point. I said we do not have anything special to bring to a raid. FI, Pally. Replenisment, SPriest or Pally. TSA, Shaman. Etc, etc. I was referring to how Survival had Expose Weakness gutted, and Marks had Imp HM equally nerfed. Those were two biggies. With the new "bring the player not the class/spec" system in place, something still needs to exist to justify a hunter's presence... because a raid will just "bring a X" in a hunter's place for top-notch damage output, or the fact that they're a Boomkin and can battle res or pinch-heal or...

I know, it's too early to call, but considering how hunters get shafted here, there, and over there (and everything adds up)... it's hard not to think the sky is about to fall.

Just... don't nerf hunters in PVE where it will carry over to PVP. I PVE, and a nerf will hurt, but I don't wish it on my fellow hunters who happen to PVP.

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In that sense, no class brings anything unique to the raid. Your point was that hunters don't have utility, I said exactly what utility we do have. You don't have to spec into that utility to be viable, but it's there. It seems your argument is that the hunter class got gutted of any distinctly *unique* buffs. This happened to all classes as part of a design decision and it's here to stay. It's been argued to death, it's not changing. The fact is, hunters are putting out spectacular damage right now, so the utility point is moot.

To the poster that said my point was that you have to spec Marks to be viable, that's not what I'm saying at all. The majority of my guild's hunters are still spec'd BM and they still put out high numbers. The post I quoted said that hunters had no utility and so I quoted exactly what utility we do have.

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Good lord please stop crying "NERF HUNTERS!" or "NERF ANY CLASS" for that matter. It's PvE, so who really cares??? Did you kill the boss? That's all that matters IMO.

Oh and I don't PvP at all. I play to raid, period. And I can care less who is topping the meters, be it hunter, mage, lock, rogue, boomkins, ect... As long as bosses drop does it really matter. I'm more of a bring the player, not the class type for whatever thats worth.

For the time being the content difficulty if so laughable that it really doesnt matter at all what classes you bring tbh. I think Blizz said somewhere that they didn't plan on making any thing as "hard" as the Sunwell anymore (forgive me if that is wrong). If all the new content (T8 and beyond) is as easy to do as the T7 then just be happy with what ya have or reroll annd collect your bloody purples.

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I have 5 MnMs, you have 8 MnMs. We all get the chocolety taste that melts in our mouth but not in our hands so why do I want 1.5 of your MnMs? Why dont you want to share 1.5 MnMs with me?

People need to feel like they're important and that what they do is important or they stop doing what they do. Ie. Why my guild went from 3 holy pallies to 0 holy pallies.