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  • 41. Re: Upcoming AE DPS Changes   11/24/2008 10:21:08 AM PST
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Q u o t e:


Seriously? I'd take it in a heart beat. Being able to deploy totems from range would be cool.

Freezing Trap... not so much. But totems? Yes, please.


Deploying totems at range-- cool.

Deploying traps at range-- meh.

This way both Hunters and Shaman are dissatisfied, so really it's a very economic decision.

................(___)..........
.................|Oo|...........
.......... /```` OO).........
........./ |____-- ..........THIS IS SPARTA
.......*...L......L.............
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  • Mal'Ganis
  • 42. Re: Upcoming AE DPS Changes   11/24/2008 10:22:30 AM PST
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Will anything be done to improve the currently useless AE DPS options for other classes? Like how Helfire is absolutely useless, or rain of fire is useless when compared against seed of corruption? Or how Flamestrike and Living Bomb really don't live up to their expectations?

Also curious if you guys considered making AE DPS only available to the pure DPS classes to help give them an actual identity in this game? Right now it feels like the pure classes are just a watered down mess with little hope of accomplishing anything as the game evolves because of the way things are shaping up.

It would be nice if the Pure classes offered something that would make them stand out.
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  • 43. Re: Upcoming AE DPS Changes   11/24/2008 10:22:38 AM PST
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Q u o t e:


Deploying totems at range-- cool.

Deploying traps at range-- meh.

This way both Hunters and Shaman are dissatisfied, so really it's a very economic decision.


Hmm. Do we have to sign some kind of trade agreement?

Wait, what do you want in return? I've got a sentry totem I haven't used since I learned it.

[ Post edited by Senriel ]

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  • 44. Re: Upcoming AE DPS Changes   11/24/2008 10:22:53 AM PST
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Q u o t e:
Shaman – we are removing the threat component from Fire Nova Totem and Magma Totem and increasing the damage from Magma Totem. This should provide the Elemental shamans in particular with some formidable AE.

The problem here is you're forcing the shaman to run into melee range, and then have to re-drop Totem of Wrath after the AOE stuff is dead. Nice change for enhancement shamans, though, and I'm grateful for that much at least.

Q u o t e:
Druid – we are adding Swipe (Cat) as a baseline ability.

Awesome, but if the damage/energy isn't sufficient, bear form could still easily prove better. That is assuming of course that pulling agro isn't an issue, which is usually the case, since AOE packs are softer hitting targets... not to mention I'm a better tank than any squishy, and the only way I'd pull agro off a prot paladin is by mauling a couple of targets.
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  • 45. Re: Upcoming AE DPS Changes   11/24/2008 10:26:25 AM PST
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If AOEing gets out of hand, Blizzard can adjust things.

They can easily make trash pulls require more planning, but also add in more AOE "moments" that let people have some fun.

I can think of boss or sub-boss encounters were non-elite adds file in and your party has to AOE them down. That's fun, it lets the AOE happen, but does not take away from the difficulty of the dungeon.

Rowr.
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Ghostcrawler
Blizzard Poster
  • 46. Re: Upcoming AE DPS Changes   11/24/2008 10:27:44 AM PST
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Q u o t e:
GC, i would like to ask you to please reconsider the shaman change. As it stands, this is a great change for enh shaman, however as an elemental shaman, if i am standing back 30 + yards nuking, having to stop what im doing, run into a crowd of mobs and toss down a totem (which removes my group/raid buffing totem) is a huge hassle and a rather large loss in both my personal dps and raid dps as well.

Please, reconsider simply adding a new talent in the elemental tree, say a 31 pointer or something such as volcano or earthquake where we can do a targeted and ranged AOE like every other caster class has.


We might still do an AE spell for Elemental as well, but that is further down the road. Let me be clear that shamans are intended to be a totem-using class. I would not expect a lot of changes that let you opt out of using totems. Instead we want to make them fun, easy and worth the effort. We did consider the problem of having to run up to AE, but this is what several specs do already -- mages to use Arcane Explosion for example. We talked to a lot of Elemental shamans who thought it wouldn't be a problem. Also remember than when a mage channels Blizzard, that is all she is doing. Totems do damage in addition to your spells.

Our goal is not to make every spec in the game awesome at AE damage. Our goal is to give you a button you can push to contribute in some way. We think Elemental shamans need to fill this role more than the rogues or Feral druids however, since they tend to compete for slots more against warlocks and mages, who have excellent AE. Our goal is for Elemental to be there as well. This may not get them there 100%, but it's a good improvement over nearly 0% which is where they stand today. :)

As far as whether you can AE too much, as I said, that is something we're keeping an eye on. Even Naxx is considered an entry-level raid and not the kind of place that requires Sunwell (or even Black Temple) -level coordination. For now it's nice to see so many players with the option to run 5-player instances and entry level raids. I would not expect the strategy in Ulduar and Icecrown to be "I'll Swipe while you guys Blizzard. Volley and Hurricane down all the trash."
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  • Bleeding Hollow
  • 47. Re: Upcoming AE DPS Changes   11/24/2008 10:28:05 AM PST
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Q u o t e:
This is really just unbelievable. Shaman gave the devs thread after thread after thread of awesome, and balanced, suggestions for AoE. They continued to hound the community for suggestions. Every single shaman said DO NOT CONSIDER ANY MORE TOTEMS for aoe, so what do they do? Buff totem damage and call it a day.

GC, I am truely disappointed in you and the rest of your team. You are letting shaman down every time you guys make a change to them.

Oh another thing about this, and what was clearly stated by the shaman community, by having our AoE tied down to totems, we have to lose our 41 point talent (Totem of Wrath). From a design point everything is wrong with this change. Horrible, stupid, ill-thought out piece of garbage change.


I am glad someone else brought this up. Every time we want to use our 'ae' ability we must sacrifice our crit/+spell ability which both nerfs Elemental's already gimp damage output and the damage output of those in our group. Not to mention the mana costs to overall damage done, and again damage sacrificed, does not seem to be worth the time it takes to place the totem and get back to safe rage caster distance.

It is nice that the threat has been removed from Fire Nova, but the same issue applies as before, not to mention the time for the totems damage tick is ridiculous.

Once again back of the bus with development strategies for Shamans I see.
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  • Bonechewer
  • 49. Re: Upcoming AE DPS Changes   11/24/2008 10:28:27 AM PST
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Q u o t e:
There is definitely a lot of AE (area effect damage) going on in World of Warcraft dungeon runs at the moment. We’re not too worried about it for now – on the contrary it’s nice to see so many people doing the level-up dungeons on the way to level 80. If we find that AE tank + AE damage strategy (with no sheeping, sapping or other crowd control) is the only way people are running heroics and raids, then we’ll probably make some changes, but for now we’re content to just see what happens.

Having said all that, we feel like a few groups are being left out of the AE fun, which makes them of less utility in the 5-player dungeons. We aren’t able to provide a lot of details yet, but here are some upcoming changes we’re making.

Shaman – we are removing the threat component from Fire Nova Totem and Magma Totem and increasing the damage from Magma Totem. This should provide the Elemental shamans in particular with some formidable AE.

Rogue – we are removing the cooldown from Fan of Knives and adjusting the damage calculation slightly to make daggers more useful for this ability.

Druid – we are adding Swipe (Cat) as a baseline ability.

As is the case with most multi-target abilities, these three should be something you want to use when faced with groups, but never against single targets. Fan of Knives and Swipe, for example, don’t grant combo points so they should never be a core part of the rotation against single targets (like most bosses).

These changes will be available in the next minor content update, so keep an eye out for the next PTR push.



If your intent is that AoE not become the primary method by which groups get through content, isn't giving everyone viable AoE, and expanding the ability of classes such as shamans and rogues to AoE working counter to that goal?

Perhaps the issue is more one of dungeon design than it is of class design. You could create mobs which behave in ways designed to foil excessive AoE. For instance, place mobs in pulls that NEED to be single targetted down before they do massive AoE. (You AoE the mobs, the mobs AoE the healer and ranged DPS)

Most of the AoE in the game requires standing in one spot. Make the mobs make us move more, and we will be forced to adjust.

The problem, IMO, is that the trash pulls are just too easy, and thus, people AoE them down.

Remember in MC? If it were possible at the time for groups to just AoE the adds on Garr, don't you think we would have? Do you know why we didn't? Because we would have wiped if we tried.

The content is too easy, and this is the result.
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Ghostcrawler
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  • 50. Re: Upcoming AE DPS Changes   11/24/2008 10:29:33 AM PST
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Q u o t e:
Awesome, but if the damage/energy isn't sufficient, bear form could still easily prove better. That is assuming of course that pulling agro isn't an issue, which is usually the case, since AOE packs are softer hitting targets... not to mention I'm a better tank than any squishy, and the only way I'd pull agro off a prot paladin is by mauling a couple of targets.


I wouldn't expect your tanking form to do better dps than your dps form, but we'll see. If you need the survivability of course, then go Dire Bear by all means. We just didn't want the only option Feral druids had to do AE to be to fight their own threat generation (or use Hurricane).
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  • 51. Re: Upcoming AE DPS Changes   11/24/2008 10:29:38 AM PST
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Ok, my first instinct is to rage at this change- in fact, I am guilty of a bit of that already. But lets take a look at what sort of actual changes GC has in mind-

GC, if we are to use Magma as our AoE, could you please elaborate as to the approximate increase in damage to this ability? We have already illustrated that:

a) this ability cannot be used at range
b) using either of these totems removes our ability to use Totem of Wrath
c) the short life span of either of these totems makes it prohibitive to use them frequently, even in a NON-moving fight.

What you have done is effectively keep mobs from attacking our totem BEFORE it can do damage, and increased the damage.


How much are you increasing it?

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  • 52. Re: Upcoming AE DPS Changes   11/24/2008 10:30:17 AM PST
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Q u o t e:


Would make more sense to drop the totem at the start of the fight and then get range.
Not really possible with fire nova totem, and magma doesn't last that long either.

Still, this change is outstanding for enhancement. I like this change a lot. It's just that its usefulness for elemental is minimal in 5-mans, and that's the main reason for the change.

Its not really worth losing totem of wraith to drop a magma totem. Personally, I'd like to see totem of wraith removed -- instead, the talent adds the "wraith" buff to any fire totem the shaman drops. Clearly, it would have to be rebalanced a bit, but I think that, if Blizzard is dead set on using totems for AoE, this change would be a decent compromise.
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  • Smolderthorn
  • 53. Re: Upcoming AE DPS Changes   11/24/2008 10:31:43 AM PST
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Awesome now elemental shammy can can in to drop a totem then use our other aeo to make sure the totem misses all the mobs while pissing off all the other aeo!!!

Range is one of the assets of elemental shammy is keeps getting taken away with by our other abilities. As it stands now I end up 20 yards away so i can hex. Then I run away so my 51 point talent doesn't negativly impact the tank.

Past experience says blizzard will do nothing to help fix my class but I'm keep holding on hoping for a scrap.
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  • Burning Blade
  • 58. Re: Upcoming AE DPS Changes   11/24/2008 10:34:58 AM PST
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Q u o t e:


I am sorry,but aoe will become even more of an issue,since everyone will aoe the trash or add or whatever.

GC,you do know that everyone is doing aoe on the trash in Naxxramas right? This with level 70 epic and blue gear from heroic...


Please think of Naxx as LBRS.... kthxbye

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  • 59. Re: Upcoming AE DPS Changes   11/24/2008 10:35:07 AM PST
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Q u o t e:


We might still do an AE spell for Elemental as well, but that is further down the road. Let me be clear that shamans are intended to be a totem-using class. I would not expect a lot of changes that let you opt out of using totems. Instead we want to make them fun, easy and worth the effort. We did consider the problem of having to run up to AE, but this is what several specs do already -- mages to use Arcane Explosion for example. We talked to a lot of Elemental shamans who thought it wouldn't be a problem. Also remember than when a mage channels Blizzard, that is all she is doing. Totems do damage in addition to your spells.

Our goal is not to make every spec in the game awesome at AE damage. Our goal is to give you a button you can push to contribute in some way. We think Elemental shamans need to fill this role more than the rogues or Feral druids however, since they tend to compete for slots more against warlocks and mages, who have excellent AE. Our goal is for Elemental to be there as well. This may not get them there 100%, but it's a good improvement over nearly 0% which is where they stand today. :)

As far as whether you can AE too much, as I said, that is something we're keeping an eye on. Even Naxx is considered an entry-level raid and not the kind of place that requires Sunwell (or even Black Temple) -level coordination. For now it's nice to see so many players with the option to run 5-player instances and entry level raids. I would not expect the strategy in Ulduar and Icecrown to be "I'll Swipe while you guys Blizzard. Volley and Hurricane down all the trash."


On a quasi-related topic, you don't want every spec in the game to be awesome at (insert job description here), and I can dig that. I would like to know what you DO see elemental shaman being awesome at. Totems are inherantly weak and still subject to totem stomping macros, our CC is weak and timed so we get it just in time to not really need it, we have no escape mechanics to speak of, our defenses are low, our single target damage is low and scales poorly.

Where do you see Elemental Shaman being awesome? Because right now, it looks like we are the KINGS of mediocre.

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