By George!! This is excellent news!!

GC, please thank the class development team for all their efforts on our behalf. I, for one, am most grateful for the work you have done and are continuing to do.

Keep it up and HAZAH!!

p.s.: To all the VERY whiney nay sayers... (RAZZBERRIES)

So the Paladin bubble is going to be on a 30 second cooldown, without any changes in duration?

What am I missing here?

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4) Judgement of Wisdom now returns a percentage of base mana instead of a percentage of max mana.

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Are you sure this isn't backwards? Please? It's already bad enough that MAX mana is its current return basis, but now it's getting nerfed to BASE mana %? That's making it a HUGE HUGE loss, moreso to Holy than anything else, especially if the proc rate isn't returned to what it used to be.

I just don't get it....do you really hate us that much?

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So the Paladin bubble is going to be on a 30 second cooldown, without any changes in duration?

What am I missing here?

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Divine Protection, Divine Shield, and Hand of Protection share a 30 second internal cooldown with Avenging Wrath. They all still have their normal cooldowns.

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Divine Protection, Divine Shield, and Hand of Protection share a 30 second internal cooldown with Avenging Wrath. They all still have their normal cooldowns.

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Gotcha. Thanks for the clarification.

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So the Paladin bubble is going to be on a 30 second cooldown, without any changes in duration?

What am I missing here?

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It will still pop forbearnace so you have nothing to worry about.

Awsome! Sounds great and thanks for the update

edit

Actaully, I have a question. Is it possible to make hand of protection castable on a party member during this shared cooldown period? Seems like a harsh penalty to keep us from casting HoP on others during the 30s.

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100%(reg)-50%(DS)=50%(under DS)+20%(AW)=80%(bubbled and AW)

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Your math is AMAZING.

But back to the subject:

There are 2 Problems with the change - If Paladin Bubbles he/she now can't use HoProtection on a teammate / raid member / party memeber for 30 seconds - nerf.

There is really no need for AW to cause or be affected by forbearense with the 50% damage reduction. It would make more sense to:

AW to not cause or be affected by Forbearanse. HoP and DS to not have the shared cooldown.

But if Blizzard still feels doing 70% of normal dmg while being invulnarable is still too much, then just have them overwrite each other - all problems solved.

I really like the changes, but I still feel like it's going to really limit with the shared cooldowns, and the fact the HoP usage on someone else disables all the big offensive and defensive abilties. I'm not sure how protecting someone else was overpowered?

With the 50% nerf to Divine Shield damage, I don't see why Avenging Wrath really needs to trigger its cooldown. In fact, the 50% to Divine Shield really fixes the "blowing up in shield" problem with all the other changes. It also lets holy paladins use the healing portion in the bubble.

I'm just kind of confused as to why it seems like a simple change is being turned into something so elaborate and nerfing other areas of the gameplay while trying to fix one aspect. It nerfs bubble damage, yes, but it gives you and your partners less opportunites for protection.

See, with HoP activating the cooldown on them all, paladins won't want to cast it on other players. Right now, sure, why not save them? If it triggers the cooldown on their main spells though, you'd better believe they're picking themselves.

I'm not trying to sound mean or anything by what I'm about to say, but look at the judgement nerfs. That obviously hit holy hard enough that their talents are being adjusted to compensate for it. I feel that this is heading down the same road. A nerf for a specific situation for a specific tree is going to hit everything else when it doesn't need to. Please don't make the same mistake again. It takes time to fix these things.

Keep up the good work.

Please consider removing Hand of Protection from the Shared cool down list. Retribution suffers in PVP utility enough with such a limiting mana pool.

We don't need to be further limited in utility by deciding whether to HoP our friend or Bubble ourself, where the option to do both has been given to us for years.

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re: Hunter gear. They don't want us to use it anyway, so I doubt they'll be too concerned abotu us not using it. They want us to use strength gear without int, and as soon as they design it better than leather, we will. The value of int still scales with Divine Plea. THis is not really an issue that I see being addressed.

As for scaling, our base mana is about 4300(4400?) iirc. My raid-buffed mana pool is about 7800. If they simply bump it to 2% base mana, it's nearly made up the difference; 3% and it's more than done so. Our mana consumption doesn't scale with ANYTHING, unlike casters who scale consumption with haste and therefore need scaling mana regen to match it. Once they find a balance point on our regen, they're set on it forever and ever. If another expansion comes out, our base mana goes up, which increases our skill costs(since they're a percentage of base mana) and there's not a problem.

Honestly PvE raiding mana isn't a problem anyway. You can use just about anything you have the GCDs for with use of Divine Plea. That's been my experience so far anyway, and it's supported by plenty of theorycraft. Mana issues are a PvP problem for the most part, and they exist there in full force.

So, on the assumption that they do indeed increase the percentage of JoW returns to some 2-3% to make up for the base mana change, this change affects PvE Ret...not at all. It might even end up being a buff for us.

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This is a MASSIVE, read MASSIVE nerf to Holy paladins. No amount of increased damage output is going to make up for the fact that we'll go OOM even faster than we do now, which is staggeringly fast. This one change tells players that Blizzard totally and completely hates Holy, and that Ret is the only spec in our trees that they give a damn about.

They need to get RID of Blessed Hands and make a talent that increases the mana returned by JoW/BoW, because Holy is in dire need of BOTH being increased, as our skills are very mana intensive. Falling back to "white damage + Seal of LOLness is not viable for us (its damage out put is HORRIBLE - 115 on an average caster mace ATM unless you have 1k spellpower, in which case it gets a whopping 140 dmg).

Ret may not need mana to scale, but Holy most certainly does. And to top it off, Ret has an extra mana gaining ability that Holy has no access to! For the love of all that's good, make JotW a freaking base ability already. Or give Holy an equivalant, because...wow. I ain't playing my Paladin anymore if this goes live.

Any word on judgement bug? Or Sacred Shield not being effected by Sheathe of Light? Or PvP tools? Or 11 pt talent?

I also don't understand the shared 30 second CD, wouldn't it be just as effective to have the abilities negate each other or cancel each other out? Seems like an easier change than overhauling the system. Cheers.

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Please consider removing Hand of Protection from the Shared cool down list. Retribution suffers in PVP utility enough with such a limiting mana pool.

We don't need to be further limited in utility by deciding whether to HoP our friend or Bubble ourself, where the option to do both has been given to us for years.

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Divine Shield: Penalty changed so that all damage done is reduced by 50% instead of a attack speed penalty.

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caved into the QQ'ers huh "QQ they can kill me with bubble up help me mr blizzard" Kalgan- nerf bubble Dev- Pallys will be mad Kalgan- I dont care Dev- Well how take it out? Kalgan- lol no noob make them do less damage so they acnt kill my warrior when they bubble

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2) Sacred Duty: This Protection talent no longer affects the attack penalty of Divine Shield and Divine Protection, but grants additional bonus Stamina.

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So we are going to be where we were b4 3.0 hit? I mean you nerfed out stamina now we are getting it back. So are we getting back what we lost?

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3) Avenging Wrath, Divine Shield, Divine Protection, and Hand of Protection have a shared, 30-second cooldown. The Forbearance effect is no longer triggered by Avenging Wrath.

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Again caved into the qq'er while making it look like you listened to us and buffed us. Sneaky mr blizzard. With no Wings forbearance we could have bubbled/winged it up. But unlike most FOTM re-roller the pallys that have been around for a while have always used bubble to heal and restart the fight. So while you think you nerfed us think again you just made it so more FOTM re-roller will leave and go back to their main.

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4) Judgement of Wisdom now returns a percentage of base mana instead of a percentage of max mana.

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An outright nerf imo. I can see how most will not think so but you are taking out mana regen away. Oh no we can stay above 50% NERF IT. Unless you increase the % returned you are going to make alot of pallys mad.

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5) All mana drain effects now return a percentage of max enemy mana (making mana drains less punishing to paladins and other characters without large mana pools.)

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This one i can say i dont get..... So when a priest mana drains US we get part of HIS mana back? What is the point of that?

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6) Judgements of the Pure: This Holy talent now increases the damage done by Seals and Judgements.

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Pure win. Thanks for increasing our damage/threat while completely ignoring more pressing matters. It is not like we could not hold agro already. A 11 point prot would have been better. But then again I guess this is mainly a buff to holy soloing.

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7) All paladins receive a single-target taunt (name TBD) as a base ability.

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I LOVE THIS. Now if a mob is on my healer and I am ret I dont have to blow wings to take them off. But will this be on shared CD with RD? And are you dropping RD?

I think alot of pallys (tanks) are mad that we STILL dont have an 11 point talent for our tree. (Ret) still needs a gap closer [well i guess all pallys need that lol) (Holy) still needs to have means to solo better.

By and by a good ammount of solid changes but imo alot of the nerfs came from caving. Way to stay strong. Oh and tell Kalgan rets will still destroy his warrior. 12 seconds of healing to full while you cant do anything but waste rage lols And tell him thanks from the pre 3.0 pally community as he single handedly got rid of 50% more of the FOTMers

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Please consider removing Hand of Protection from the Shared cool down list. Retribution suffers in PVP utility enough with such a limiting mana pool.

We don't need to be further limited in utility by deciding whether to HoP our friend or Bubble ourself, where the option to do both has been given to us for years.

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Going to have to agree....this wasn't needed...

lol at Shaman birching about nerfs to other classes simply because there is blue in the post...you want a blue nerf post?

This is another nerf post dont kid yourself, 50% less damage is a nerf, so is max mana to base mana.
30 seconds with no way to use protection on a friend is also a nerf.

If you really want blue progress like this you can have it silly Shaman.

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Also, shouldn't this be in the Paladin section of the forums?

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NO GC is scared to go over there. After I and a few pallys ripped into him towards the end of beta he cried to Mr blizzard to not go over there even after he told us he was up to the job.

BTW GC this is Veloran from the beta forums. I still hope you open your eyes.

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3) Avenging Wrath, Divine Shield, Divine Protection, and Hand of Protection have a shared, 30-second cooldown. The Forbearance effect is no longer triggered by Avenging Wrath.

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I'm loving the other changes, but this is a bad idea in more ways than one.

First off, obviously a shared cooldown between AW/DS makes still makes it Forbearance in effect, just on a 30 second timer. The Divine Shield damage nerf should have fixed it so having Wings under the effects of bubble isn't overpowering, and if that's not the case, AW and DS should be mutually exclusive (that is, using one overwrites the other). Our one active offensive augmenting ability shouldn't lock out our defensive abilities and vice versa, not when Avenging Wrath is a very fragile ability indeed (can be purged, spellstolen, dispelled, etc). Forgive me for making a cross-class comparison, but mages who use Arcane Power (which suffers some of the same pros and cons with AW) doesn't lock a mage out from Ice Block.


Secondly, I'm not sure if anyone caught it...but it seems Hand of Protection will share the 30 second lockout as well. This is a really bad idea - it's over penalizing us for either defending or augmenting our offense by locking us out of the ability to protect another player from melee for 30 seconds. HotP shouldn't be sharing the cooldown, not if our design's to actively support others by nature.