you design some content that is actually a challenge?

The point being that people use CC to eliminate threats. Most of the WoTLK content that I have seen (and I've been all the way through Naxx) is ridiculously, pathetically, EASY, especially compared to how BC was. If there is nothing dangerous, there is no point using CC. Look at MgT vs. Utgarde Pinnacle, for example. There is no way in hell a starter group in greens and blues was gonna AoE their way through MgT. Most any WoTLK dungeo, on the other hand..? I mean seriously, people ding 80 and go straight to heroics in their levelling gear. What does that tell you? Are we gonna get "SUPER HEROICS" now with new badges etc etc??

I'm just saying that handing out all these buffs only to nerf them is a damn surefire way of pissing people off and driving them away from the game, on top of making you look incompetent (not you personally, of course.) Maybe that's what you're going for with D3 coming out relatively soon, I dunno, but it's worth a thought. You designed this stuff and had plenty of time to test it. Don't act so surprised when the things that were said on the beta forum over and over and over (aoe only runs, lack of healers, general boredom, etc etc) become a reality.

You designed a dumbed-down game, and you got it. Now why the surprise at the result?

actually the main difference was the large gearing changes in bc that arent in lk.

A raid geared level 60 was underpowered shortly into outlands. A raid geared level 70 is still wearing most of the same stuff at 80.

This means they outgear the content, which is what allows for the massive aoeing. Without the gear inflation the way it was in BC, I dont see this changing. Or if it did, the dungeons would be quite hard for people who level after the fact and are running the place in quest greens and the like.

-Moon

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Q u o t e:
We wanted to make sure players actually ran the level-up dungeons and we wanted to make sure players didn't hit the introductory raid content like a brick wall. Those are both good things, in our mind.

We certainly know how to design encounters that you can't just AE tank and AE dps your way through. In the meantime, it's nice that the instances are being seen by more than just a small percent of players. :)

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on the subject of dungeons, why are heroics harder than raids again? (im looking at you occulus)

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Q u o t e:
We wanted to make sure players actually ran the level-up dungeons and we wanted to make sure players didn't hit the introductory raid content like a brick wall. Those are both good things, in our mind.

We certainly know how to design encounters that you can't just AE tank and AE dps your way through. In the meantime, it's nice that the instances are being seen by more than just a small percent of players. :)

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WoW is starting to look to go down the same road as "No child left behind" ....which screws the smart kids over by keeping them dumbed down with the rest of the challenged. See what i'm saying?

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Q u o t e:
We wanted to make sure players actually ran the level-up dungeons and we wanted to make sure players didn't hit the introductory raid content like a brick wall. Those are both good things, in our mind.

We certainly know how to design encounters that you can't just AE tank and AE dps your way through. In the meantime, it's nice that the instances are being seen by more than just a small percent of players. :)

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You call it a brick wall, some other players call it a challenge.

We want challenging content. We want raiding to be somewhat difficult. If you make it too easy (as seems to be the case currently) you run the rick of the content becoming trivialized even as it is initially explored.

In vanilla wow, when you ran UBRS or scholo, you needed to sheep, sap, shackle, etc in order to survive. You couldn't AoE your way through, or you would wipe repeatedly. You know what else? Those instances were FUN, because they were hard. The same applied to some of the lvl 70 5-man dungeons back when nobody had yet geared up fully in raid gear.

Where you see a brick wall, I see content that can't be put on farm (i.e., BORING) status immediately. My guild is pretty much got Naxx on farm, and I haven't even gotten to 80 yet. That's just messed up, and lame.

Fix it please.

In BC the instances were at least challenging. These are a joke. I personally don't enjoy content that calls for one spell spamming throughout. It's boring. Maybe you needed to do this to placate the players who think that hard is discriminatory to them based on basic motor skills or synapse firing capacity. However, this entire expansion is in no way reminiscent of the game that challenged me and hooked me in the past. There is no waving a magic wand to change things at this point, I understand that. But between the content, seemingly silly imbalances in classes while trying to give them all roughly the same mechanics (AE everyone, it's all you need anyway) and the upcoming dual spec system that will make overpowered hybrids even more attractive to any raid/group, I am fast approaching the limit of my loyalty.

I think the difficulty, or lack thereof of Naxx is a godsend. I'm a former--and now again--raid leader who killed up to Shahrazz in October 07, who saw everything that was wrong with raiding in Burning Crusade firsthand. Things like a resist fight with split second mechanics in Hydross being the entry boss to a 25 man, or Magtheridon requiring 5 boxes be clicked as an attunement fight was just not good entry level design. I witnessed many people give up on raiding because there was no ramp up other than Karazhan, and even then the trash was so god awful people didn't want to go.

My core raiders and myself think the 10-man Naxx is perfect: it introudecs people to the mechanics and requirements of raiding, without piling it all on and forcing guild leaders to tell their better players to have patience with their chaff. If you've never led a guild, you might not understand.

We fully believe Uldaur to be a real raid zone, and after clearing Naxx last night, we fully intend on using it, and Sartharion/Archavon/Malygos to gear up for Uldaur, just as people use heroics to gear up for Naxx. I will be disappointed if Uldaur is a cakewalk, but I do not expect it to be in the slightest. Actually, I think people forget just how prohibitive raiding was in the beginning of TBC: Heroic keys, attunement quests to all dungeons, doing Black Morass runs, Shattered Halls runs, etc. My guild got a late start raiding in TBC simply because we couldn't get people attuned quick enough for Kara. It was all a nightmare.This way is so much better as an entry to raiding, that it's absurd people are quibbling over it. So many more people are going to raid, and be available to raid, and that's only a good thing.

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Q u o t e:


You call it a brick wall, some other players call it a challenge.

We want challenging content. We want raiding to be somewhat difficult. If you make it too easy (as seems to be the case currently) you run the rick of the content becoming trivialized even as it is initially explored.

In vanilla wow, when you ran UBRS or scholo, you needed to sheep, sap, shackle, etc in order to survive. You couldn't AoE your way through, or you would wipe repeatedly. You know what else? Those instances were FUN, because they were hard. The same applied to some of the lvl 70 5-man dungeons back when nobody had yet geared up fully in raid gear.

Where you see a brick wall, I see content that can't be put on farm (i.e., BORING) status immediately. My guild is pretty much got Naxx on farm, and I haven't even gotten to 80 yet. That's just messed up, and lame.

Fix it please.

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But there is a large portion of the playerbase, possibly the majority, that disagrees with you. They will wipe 3 times in a heroic and, for some unknown reason, their internet will suddenly cut out.

And besides, there will be challenging content in the future. I think Bliz was trying to get more people into raiding faster. The only problem is that people may be on the edge of content all the time, causing them to rush to put out another instance.

Consider how badly heroics and kara have gotten nerfed over the lifetime of BC. It just seems like the current dev thought is to just start them off as nerfed, so a larger amount of players can see the content sooner.


PS - I'm not saying I agree. But I'm saying I see where they're coming from.

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Q u o t e:
I think the difficulty, or lack thereof of Naxx is a godsend. I'm a former--and now again--raid leader who killed up to Shahrazz in October 07, who saw everything that was wrong with raiding in Burning Crusade firsthand. Things like a resist fight with split second mechanics in Hydross being the entry boss to a 25 man, or Magtheridon requiring 5 boxes be clicked as an attunement fight was just not good entry level design. I witnessed many people give up on raiding because there was no ramp up other than Karazhan, and even then the trash was so god awful people didn't want to go.

My core raiders and myself think the 10-man Naxx is perfect: it introudecs people to the mechanics and requirements of raiding, without piling it all on and forcing guild leaders to tell their better players to have patience with their chaff. If you've never led a guild, you might not understand.

We fully believe Uldaur to be a real raid zone, and after clearing Naxx last night, we fully intend on using it, and Sartharion/Archavon/Malygos to gear up for Uldaur, just as people use heroics to gear up for Naxx. I will be disappointed if Uldaur is a cakewalk, but I do not expect it to be in the slightest. Actually, I think people forget just how prohibitive raiding was in the beginning of TBC: Heroic keys, attunement quests to all dungeons, doing Black Morass runs, Shattered Halls runs, etc. My guild got a late start raiding in TBC simply because we couldn't get people attuned quick enough for Kara. It was all a nightmare.This way is so much better as an entry to raiding, that it's absurd people are quibbling over it. So many more people are going to raid, and be available to raid, and that's only a good thing.

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So because you're not very good at the game, I have to suffer? No child left behind in it's purest form. It's messed up.

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Q u o t e:
We wanted to make sure players actually ran the level-up dungeons and we wanted to make sure players didn't hit the introductory raid content like a brick wall. Those are both good things, in our mind.

We certainly know how to design encounters that you can't just AE tank and AE dps your way through. In the meantime, it's nice that the instances are being seen by more than just a small percent of players. :)

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You said Naxx wouldn't be AoE'd through. It is though. What went wrong then?

I think you overdid tank threat generation by a mile, but I'm curious on your thoughts.

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Q u o t e:
I think the difficulty, or lack thereof of Naxx is a godsend. I'm a former--and now again--raid leader who killed up to Shahrazz in October 07, who saw everything that was wrong with raiding in Burning Crusade firsthand. Things like a resist fight with split second mechanics in Hydross being the entry boss to a 25 man, or Magtheridon requiring 5 boxes be clicked as an attunement fight was just not good entry level design. I witnessed many people give up on raiding because there was no ramp up other than Karazhan, and even then the trash was so god awful people didn't want to go.

My core raiders and myself think the 10-man Naxx is perfect: it introudecs people to the mechanics and requirements of raiding, without piling it all on and forcing guild leaders to tell their better players to have patience with their chaff. If you've never led a guild, you might not understand.

We fully believe Uldaur to be a real raid zone, and after clearing Naxx last night, we fully intend on using it, and Sartharion/Archavon/Malygos to gear up for Uldaur, just as people use heroics to gear up for Naxx. I will be disappointed if Uldaur is a cakewalk, but I do not expect it to be in the slightest. Actually, I think people forget just how prohibitive raiding was in the beginning of TBC: Heroic keys, attunement quests to all dungeons, doing Black Morass runs, Shattered Halls runs, etc. My guild got a late start raiding in TBC simply because we couldn't get people attuned quick enough for Kara. It was all a nightmare.This way is so much better as an entry to raiding, that it's absurd people are quibbling over it. So many more people are going to raid, and be available to raid, and that's only a good thing.

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Wow, just wow, you couldn't get your guildies to solo 3 quests, and do 4 regular instances to get attuned for kara? And just how hard is it, exactly, to right-click a box?

The attunements made sense, they made you follow the Outland storyline. The only time they didn't was when you were in BT, and wanted to re-roll.

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Q u o t e:
We wanted to make sure players actually ran the level-up dungeons and we wanted to make sure players didn't hit the introductory raid content like a brick wall. Those are both good things, in our mind.

We certainly know how to design encounters that you can't just AE tank and AE dps your way through. In the meantime, it's nice that the instances are being seen by more than just a small percent of players. :)

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most pve players do all of the dugens at 80 since everyone and there mom can do heroics

I said this in the other thread, but it is worth repeating. Using aoe to plow your way through instances is not fun. I am really shocked that the devs are happy about this.

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Q u o t e:
I said this in the other thread, but it is worth repeating. Using aoe to plow your way through instances is not fun. I am really shocked that the devs are happy about this.

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Yes it is.

Are you jealous because your damage is mostly single target?

That`s what happens when the good people go somewhere else and blizzard need to get some strange from AOE to run the balance. Since GC came to blizzard, 8 months ? WOTLK is terrible on that Aspect ...

The graphics ? Beautifull!
The quest? Some nice moments.
The class balance and so on ? Craptascular.

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Q u o t e:
We wanted to make sure players actually ran the level-up dungeons and we wanted to make sure players didn't hit the introductory raid content like a brick wall. Those are both good things, in our mind.

We certainly know how to design encounters that you can't just AE tank and AE dps your way through. In the meantime, it's nice that the instances are being seen by more than just a small percent of players. :)

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If you know how to design encounters that you can't AE tank all the way through then why not design the new dungeons that way? I understand the gear gap isn't as large this expansion, but I shouldn't be able to completely AE my way through UK in 25 minutes at level 70. I did this with a tank in a smattering of outland quest greens and level 65+ dungeon blues. This shouldn't happen.

I don't know if you can do anything about this now, but currently I have found little to no enjoyment running Northrend dungeons. Maybe AE runs are fun to Blizz but it takes the challenge and strategy out of the game, which was the best part. You don't have to make every pull 6 plus to force CC, but make it challenging. Perhaps give mobs buffs so when certain mobs are both up and attacking they get enraged, or they do a dangerous AE and need to be CC. There are plenty of options to increase the strategy involved in this game, but right now I'm disappointed. In terms of aesthetics and design I give LK a 10/10, but in terms of difficulty and game play it gets a 2/10.