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Q u o t e:
Obviously, we need to nerf holy paladins.

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Q u o t e:
Really, they should have just ditched spell plate and let us optimize for SP mail. That would be the easy route!

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Disagree. Why roll a paladin if I am gonna wear mail?

Bottom line is Blizzard FAILED on this and alot of of issuses about Holy Paladins in WotLK: Ret nerfs hurting holy, no spell/talent to deal with AoE damage and having them have their own set of gear cause they are clueless with Holy Paladin gear.


But, to FORCE a paladin to wear mail is utter ridiculous to solve this problem. Paladins are a PLATE class and should remain that way REGARDLESS OF SPEC! Come up with some fancy Str/AP to INT/SP conversion but for god sake do not make me wear mail or cloth. What is this 2005?

Blizzard messed up, deal with it and swallow the money you have to pay some Indian programmer in bangledesh to pound out some plate healing gear for the neglected and forgotten Holy Paladins.

It is the least you can do.

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Q u o t e:


Bolded for emphasis. A lot of effort has been made with this expansion to prevent there being any piece of gear that is only of use to 1 spec of 1 class. They are even changing the mechanics for feral weapons to prevent this from being the case. It certainly *seems* like a good idea. They seemed to have missed the boat though in a big big way.

Spellpower plate. There are 3 plate wearers out there with 3 specs each. Holy paladins are the sole spec that has any use for this stuff. Further, it takes up about 1/3 of all the plate drops (from looking at the various loot tables). Why should 1/3 of the drops go to 1/9 of the specs? (in my experience 1/9 is charitable...seeing a lot less holy paladins these days)

They had the perfect way to solve this...they should have made 2 of the death knight specs spellpower users (frost and unholy most likely). That would have been the best solution. They failed to do that though so now we have a huge number of drops going to waste.

Any chance of anything being done about this? It's clearly too late to change the death knights. I'm guessing that this is just going to be something that continues to be a problem thoughout WotLK.

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quit QQ

DRUIDS USE LEATHER

SHAMAN USE MAIL

PRIESTS USE CLOTH

so you all use different gear, and if you say "we can downgrade armor"

so can paladins :/

also paladins have no aoe, and are at a disadvantage

so stfu, you have everything! (cyclone) and we have nothing!

now go away

The only fix I can see is a deep Holy talent that converts Strength/AP into spell power, hit rating into mp/5 and then just put int on every piece of plate gear (muahaha). This would also solve our soloing problems, as you'd get used to seeing Paladins with both 1500+ spellpower and 2500+ AP running around with maybe 30% melee and spell crit. And do you have any idea what that would do to the damage of our Seals and Judgements?

BOOM.

There's just a ton of stats we need on our healing plate, and honestly, no matter what they do the issue of stuff dropping nobody can use is always going to be there.

Look at spellpower leather. Yeah some Shamans might use it, or some desperate Paladin waiting on a gear uprade, but for nearly every case it's Druid loot. Same with spellpower mail, as a matter of fact, cloth is the only armor class that has multiple classes chasing after one type of itemization.

It happens a lot in 5-mans, ran heroic Halls of Lightning yesterday, Tornado Cuffs drops. No Hunter or Druid in the group, they're no good for me, even if I was Ret, so they got sharded. Or when Talisman of Troll Divinity dropped in heroic Drak'Tharon Keep, I could technically use it, if I enjoyed ridicule, spirit is useless for me, no Priest or Druid in group, sharded.

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Q u o t e:
quit QQ

DRUIDS USE LEATHER .....*snip*

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Umm, you seem to have totally missed the point. This is not me saying that holy paladins need nerfed. That is clearly not the case (if anything, they need some buffs). I'm talking about an itemization issue here.

Repeating....This is not a "paladins have something that I wish I had" post.

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Q u o t e:
There's just a ton of stats we need on our healing plate, and honestly, no matter what they do the issue of stuff dropping nobody can use is always going to be there. *snip*

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Yes this is true, but spellpower plate is currently the worst offender by far. Every other piece of gear that drops will be of use to at LEAST twice as many specs (more if you factor in the downgrading armor type option that many people have brought up).

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Q u o t e:
Yes this is true, but spellpower plate is currently the worst offender by far. Every other piece of gear that drops will be of use to at LEAST twice as many specs (more if you factor in the downgrading armor type option that many people have brought up).

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Hey, like I said, if Blizzard wants to add in mp/5, spell power and int scaling off DPS plate and re-itemize caster plate, I'm all for it. Just don't come crying when Holy Paladins with 1500 spellpower and 2500 AP start stomping everyone. All of our offensive spells scale off spell power and AP.

Any attempts to change ap to sp or str to int would be a huge issue. Where do you put it in the holy tree? How do you address the talent point loss when you are forced to spec into certain talents in your tree. If you put it too deep in the tree then you have no holy paladins at early to mid levels, if you put it to shallow in the tree then you have prots and rets speccing into it as well. You are opening up a huge can of worms with this.

You know, I've heard the argument to do away with the spell plate a lot "because not many can use it". Seriously? Okay, there's three types of plate: tanking, dps, and spell at the moment. In a 25 man raid how many plate tanks are there usually? 1-3 based on the encounter, if you have a feral druid or not, etc. How many holy pallies? 1-3 for the standard 7-9 healer setup. How many plate dps? Again you'll find in most cases it's 1-3. People are making it out as if there's only one spell plate user per raid and that is simply incorrect.

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Q u o t e:


Yeah, they kinda "pooed the screwch" on that one.

At least I'll get all the SP plate that drops, EVAR. (I'm the only pally even *planning* on being holy ATM.)

And all the protadins & retadins will have *very* nice off-sets.

LOL.

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Your not alone in the misery and glory that is a HEALADIN =D

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Q u o t e:


Disagree. Why roll a paladin if I am gonna wear mail?

Bottom line is Blizzard FAILED on this and alot of of issuses about Holy Paladins in WotLK: Ret nerfs hurting holy, no spell/talent to deal with AoE damage and having them have their own set of gear cause they are clueless with Holy Paladin gear.


But, to FORCE a paladin to wear mail is utter ridiculous to solve this problem. Paladins are a PLATE class and should remain that way REGARDLESS OF SPEC! Come up with some fancy Str/AP to INT/SP conversion but for god sake do not make me wear mail or cloth. What is this 2005?

Blizzard messed up, deal with it and swallow the money you have to pay some Indian programmer in bangledesh to pound out some plate healing gear for the neglected and forgotten Holy Paladins.

It is the least you can do.

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Indian programmer in Bangledesh???? For the record, its Bangladesh....
and as a matter of fact... blizz doesnt outsource anything.. why wud they when they get all they need here in Irvine, CA???

and the way u said it, makes it sound like Indian programmers are worthless and do small time stuff... I take serious offence at that since I'm Indian... you obv have no clue abt anything....

I think the easiest solution to this is the one we "kinda sorta" had pre-3.0.

Make Holy the "Feral" tree of the paladin class. Give the single tree two roles, offensive {something} and defensive healer, the way that feral has offensive melee and defensive tank. Separate the roles a bit through talent costs/abilities/gear.

We kind of had this before with the 40/0/21 shock spec compared to 41/20/0 standard healing spec. Except gearwise, leveling as shock was a pain and dpswise, shock ran out of gas right after kara. In the same tree though, the two builds looked a bit different, even within the holy tree. They were geared differently too, back when healing and damage were separate stats.

I'm not saying shock itself has to be resurrected, just that shock was the closest we had (and it has a continual set of people that just won't 'LET IT DIE ALREADY!!!'), there are talents like purifying power that could be used for the consecrate aspect, but are underutilized because consecrate does such terribad damage right now that it's not worth the mana.

That's my 2c.

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Q u o t e:
They could just have every Paladin heal scale from AP instead of SP and reduce the mana costs.

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has been suggested, has been ignored. I would love if Holy had talents that converted AP -SP and Str - Int and possibly hit to crit.

why make it so complicate here an example
baseline ability

Conversion to light(no category and can't be removed until death/cancelled)

90% of total mana

convert all str/agi point ON YOUR GEAR into int
convert all ap ON YOUR GEAR into spellpower
convert all hit rating ON YOUR GEAR into mp5
when this ability wear off. the caster lose 90% of his mana (so if you cancel it)

so we could play around whit gem/enchant to turn it into what you want

also that would make it so you can still equip mail/leather/cloth and do just as fine

also you cannot remove it/use it in mid fight or you will lose load of mana, unless you really want to which will just give pally more flexibility (if you can consider this even usable in pvp) laso regaining 90% mana is longer that to use a macro (when ooc)

Also the point of "ON YOUR GEAR" mean you won't get more sp if you get blessing of might, basicly they won't get advantage over other healer cauz of this

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Q u o t e:


Bolded for emphasis. A lot of effort has been made with this expansion to prevent there being any piece of gear that is only of use to 1 spec of 1 class. They are even changing the mechanics for feral weapons to prevent this from being the case. It certainly *seems* like a good idea. They seemed to have missed the boat though in a big big way.

Spellpower plate. There are 3 plate wearers out there with 3 specs each. Holy paladins are the sole spec that has any use for this stuff. Further, it takes up about 1/3 of all the plate drops (from looking at the various loot tables). Why should 1/3 of the drops go to 1/9 of the specs? (in my experience 1/9 is charitable...seeing a lot less holy paladins these days)

They had the perfect way to solve this...they should have made 2 of the death knight specs spellpower users (frost and unholy most likely). That would have been the best solution. They failed to do that though so now we have a huge number of drops going to waste.

Any chance of anything being done about this? It's clearly too late to change the death knights. I'm guessing that this is just going to be something that continues to be a problem thoughout WotLK.

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HERE IS A CONCEPT HAVE THE DAMN ROLL FOR LOOT TABLE BASED ON PARTY THEN EVERYONE IS HAPPY ALWAYS!
You would always get something and less DE crap. Totally solves all the problems finally.

If it wasn't for aesthetics, I'd say the heck with +spellpower plate, and just have Holy paladins wear mail. Give them some kind of +AC talent so people don't complain, whatever.

Unfortunately that doesn't really fly since +sp mail, well, typically looks like it should be on a shaman (since that's what it's made for). Ah well.

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Q u o t e:
It would feel very elegant to get rid of healing plate. But it is a pretty major change and one you aren't likely to see anytime soon.

The logical choice is to make Holy (and all paladin healing really) scale off of AP somehow. But then you also need to solve the mana pool and regen problems because melee dps rings don't have int or mp5 on them.

It's not an impossible problem to solve, but it is a big one. Changing melee druids to share a lot of gear with rogues has been tricky and something we are still working on.

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I personally cannot see such a system working out well unless all the talents in the paladin holy tree are conversion type talents.... or you end up having all paladin specs being good healing specs.

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Q u o t e:


I personally cannot see such a system working out well unless all the talents in the paladin holy tree are conversion type talents.... or you end up having all paladin specs being good healing specs.

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That would be possible.

100% str -> int deep 40+ holy talent.

Would be a little weird though.

Of course this has to be brought up by a druid. Probably a feral druid.

He mentions so much wasted gear. There was way more wasted gear before.

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Q u o t e:
It would feel very elegant to get rid of healing plate. But it is a pretty major change and one you aren't likely to see anytime soon.

The logical choice is to make Holy (and all paladin healing really) scale off of AP somehow. But then you also need to solve the mana pool and regen problems because melee dps rings don't have int or mp5 on them.

It's not an impossible problem to solve, but it is a big one. Changing melee druids to share a lot of gear with rogues has been tricky and something we are still working on.

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But that would be more homogenization.
Haven't we had enough of it (homogenization) lately ?

Spell power, spirit, role, talents, druid tanking mechanics, AoE damage dealing, geez - even the forums get homogenized !

Please be careful, GC - you guys might have reached a breaking point of homogenization here.

Edit: typo.