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Q u o t e:


You're assuming the hybrid is geared enough for the encounter to heal or tank as well as they DPS. This just simply isn't true. Very few hybrids that DPS, tank, or heal like doing any of the others. Maybe they like one of them, but you can bet unless they have a raid on farm they won't have near the gear. If they really needed a tank i wouldn't mind going as an OT, but my focus is on DPS.

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I find it funny that you mention that you have to assume the hybrid has the gear (even though I clearly told you that getting off-spec is not that difficult), and then you go to ADMIT that if you had the chance to go as an offtank to the raid, you would. So, to clarify, you are saying that it is ok for you to do as much DPS as my pure dps class, yet when the raid needs an OT, you'll jump right in and tell the pure dps classes, "oh well I can DPS as hard as you, and still do more!"

Like I said, no matter what kinda BS that these people come out with supporting hybrids, there is no reason WHATSOEVER that a hybrid should even be capable of respecing and fullfilling other roles if they can perform as well as a pure dps class in damage. It's just not balanced.

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Q u o t e:



ISo, to clarify, you are saying that it is ok for you to do as much DPS as my pure dps class, yet when the raid needs an OT, you'll jump right in and tell the pure dps classes, "oh well I can DPS as hard as you, and still do more!"

Like I said, no matter what kinda BS that these people come out with supporting hybrids, there is no reason WHATSOEVER that a hybrid should even be capable of respecing and fullfilling other roles if they can perform as well as a pure dps class in damage. It's just not balanced.

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^^ Another Purist who doesn't understand, and refuses to even try

If they ask me to OT, I say to the raid leader "Sure" and respec/regear **poof**

...and then I turn to all the DPS and say, "I hope you guys can make up for me NOT being able to do xxxx DPS now, because with this spec & gear I hit like a wounded kitten and won't even try. Good Luck!!"

If any DK/Paladin/Druid spec FROM Damage TO Tanking and STILL beats you on the DPS meter, worrying about hybrid DPS is far from your biggest problem.

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Q u o t e:


^^ Another Purist who doesn't understand, and refuses to even try

If they ask me to OT, I say to the raid leader "Sure" and respec/regear **poof**

...and then I turn to all the DPS and say, "I hope you guys can make up for me NOT being able to do xxxx DPS now, because with this spec & gear I hit like a wounded kitten and won't even try. Good Luck!!"

If any DK/Paladin/Druid spec FROM Damage TO Tanking and STILL beats you on the DPS meter, worrying about hybrid DPS is far from your biggest problem.

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You sir, are a moron. I NEVER said that a hybrid can out dps a pure dps class in a tank or healing spec. Please, please find anywhere in my posts that say that. I said (i am guessing you did not read my original post) that a hybrid can spec into tanking and healing, whereas a pure DPS class cannot. Please go find my original post on page 4 of this topic, and then try to come up with a real argument.

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Q u o t e:


What's ironic is that it's the reverse argument that keeps getting presented to "hybrids" and you chose to ignore that.

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I never chose to ignore it, it was the dynamics of the game Pre-Wrath. Informed people who chose to play Hybrids accepted the fact that they filled 2 out of the 3 roles well.

Now that the game has changed you are stating that I should forget all of the time I spent working up this toons gear and rep and just re-roll. I had no control of what changes were made and I just suck it up and move on?

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Q u o t e:


You sir, are a moron. I NEVER said that a hybrid can out dps a pure dps class in a tank or healing spec. Please, please find anywhere in my posts that say that. I said (i am guessing you did not read my original post) that a hybrid can spec into tanking and healing, whereas a pure DPS class cannot. Please go find my original post on page 4 of this topic, and then try to come up with a real argument.

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(post #142)

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Q u o t e:
"when the raid needs an OT, you'll jump right in and tell the pure dps classes, "oh well I can DPS as hard as you, and still do more!"

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(post #140)

Riiiiiiight... tell us another funny story. So how exactly should this statement of yours be interpreted then?

Go ahead... I'll wait...

....
...
..
.



Exactly. If I'm DPS spec'd, I will DPS. If I'm not, I can't.

/thread

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Q u o t e:
[quote]

You sir, are a moron. I NEVER said that a hybrid can out dps a pure dps class in a tank or healing spec. Please, please find anywhere in my posts that say that. I said (i am guessing you did not read my original post) that a hybrid can spec into tanking and healing, whereas a pure DPS class cannot. Please go find my original post on page 4 of this topic, and then try to come up with a real argument.[/quote

"when the raid needs an OT, you'll jump right in and tell the pure dps classes, "oh well I can DPS as hard as you, and still do more!"

Riiiiiiight... tell us another funny story. So how exactly should this statement of yours be interpreted then?

Go ahead... I'll wait...



....
...
..
.



Exactly. If I'm DPS spec'd, I will DPS. If I'm not, I can't.

/thread

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Glad you waited. Now, let me Clarify how you're a moron. I said "oh well I can DPS as hard as you, and still do more!" . Right? I said this. What i did NOT say is "oh well I can DPS as hard as you, and still do more in the SAME SPEC!" You see that? It's called reading comprehension. Learn it, love it. Now, where is your real argument again?

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Q u o t e:


Glad you waited. Now, let me Clarify how you're a moron. I said "oh well I can DPS as hard as you, and still do more!" . Right? I said this. What i did NOT say is "oh well I can DPS as hard as you, and still do more in the SAME SPEC!" You see that? It's called reading comprehension. Learn it, love it. Now, where is your real argument again?

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/point
/laugh

Reread your own quote. Put more thought into what you're saying next time and this wouldn't be an issue. A logical person (i.e. someone beyond grade school comprehension) would read your quote, and assume that the action of respeccing to OT at the beginning of the sentence would carry through to the end of the same sentence.

But let's look at the new quote, shall we? Let's assume what you *koff* REALLY meant was that we can DPS as hard as you, and then respec and perform a completely different function while completely abandoning the first.

...

Yeah.. there isn't a problem with that. It's called flexibility. Some people respec and regear. Others log-off and re-log onto a different character.

OMG!! This is ALSO unacceptable! You should demand that Blizz nerf alts! It is unfair to the Purists that a healer can log-off of their character, and then log on as a completely different character to do DPS! It will take your raid spots! From now on, everyone must declare their MAIN toon on their account. Any other character that they have will be designated an ALT, and automatically have their damage output nerfed by 10%.

I approve this message. and you know... I'm waiting for blizz to make a rogue tank. he wouldn't need to wear plate and take damage. he could just dodge everything.

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Q u o t e:


I never chose to ignore it, it was the dynamics of the game Pre-Wrath. Informed people who chose to play Hybrids accepted the fact that they filled 2 out of the 3 roles well.

Now that the game has changed you are stating that I should forget all of the time I spent working up this toons gear and rep and just re-roll. I had no control of what changes were made and I just suck it up and move on?

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Or they liked the flavor. As a warlock you would welcome Moonkins due to the fact they provide your curse of elements with no dps loss so you can throw on Agony for a dps gain for yourself. As a druid I've filled other roles in my guild. I've healed, tanked (main tanked too), dpsed. I collected gear that took me months and luck (drop rates QQ). If you fall behind hybrids in damage you should be asking the warlock forum on how to improve your gear and rotation not "nerf hybrids".

IE: Other games seem to be listening to their player feedback and may be pulling money away from World of Warcraft, so lets send someone to our forums to post vast and undefined references to changes that string players along with the hopes that "Things will get better! I mean, they can't get any worse".















But they do.

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Q u o t e:
you'll be taken if you're a good player.

end of story.

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Not really. If both the players are of equal quality, then the one bringing the most benefit to the raid will always get picked.

Yesterday when we were doing Naxx-10 for the first time, we had 7 hybrids ( 3 shamans, 2 druids, 2 pallies) and 3 pure classes (hunter, mage, lock).

And this is going to be the norm for the rest of WoTLK. you can't replace the Boomkin with the second lock./mage. They do comparable DPS -- but the second lock brings absolutely nothing to the raid. 2 mages are not required -- 1 is enough for Imp scorch.

Now, hybrids would argue -- can you bring a second Boomkin? My answer would be -- Moonkin is a spec of a certain class. how many of that class was in the raid? Two -- the other druid was feral.

How many of the pure classes was in the raid? One of each kind not spec.

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Q u o t e:
IE: Other games seem to be listening to their player feedback and may be pulling money away from World of Warcraft, so lets send someone to our forums to post vast and undefined references to changes that string players along with the hopes that "Things will get better! I mean, they can't get any worse".















But they do.

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Stop strawmanning what Ghostcrawler said, and step back into the real world please.

Stop defending someone because "OMG their text is blue and their icon moves!"

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Q u o t e:
Stop defending someone because "OMG their text is blue and their icon moves!"

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And you're strawmanning again. I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that you are either a troll or someone utterly incapable of intelligent discussion.

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Q u o t e:


Not really. If both the players are of equal quality, then the one bringing the most benefit to the raid will always get picked.

Yesterday when we were doing Naxx-10 for the first time, we had 7 hybrids ( 3 shamans, 2 druids, 2 pallies) and 3 pure classes (hunter, mage, lock).

And this is going to be the norm for the rest of WoTLK. you can't replace the Boomkin with the second lock./mage. They do comparable DPS -- but the second lock brings absolutely nothing to the raid. 2 mages are not required -- 1 is enough for Imp scorch.

Now, hybrids would argue -- can you bring a second Boomkin? My answer would be -- Moonkin is a spec of a certain class. how many of that class was in the raid? Two -- the other druid was feral.

How many of the pure classes was in the raid? One of each kind not spec.

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I wouldn't panic just yet. That was just one raid. You can rightfully judge the entire future of raids based on the one you happened to have.

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Q u o t e:
IE: Other games seem to be listening to their player feedback and may be pulling money away from World of Warcraft, so lets send someone to our forums to post vast and undefined references to changes that string players along with the hopes that "Things will get better! I mean, they can't get any worse".















But they do.

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Things are better than they used to be. Ret. pally's now do good damage, mages have some survivability, feral druids are viable dps, and we aren't all reliant on having a shaman in our group to do good damage.

Things are better than they used to. All the issues aren't worked out, all the wrinkles ironed out, but things are better.

A prime example is hunters. Pet changes, master's call, and disengage to name a few. The next are baseline deterrence (an improvement, however week) and the massive overhaul of our Aspects, including the new and improved Viper, as well as Dragonhawk. Hell, even our traps are better than before. Even though they still suck, they are still better.

All of this leaves me having faith in Blizzard as a whole. Things aren't perfect right now (and never will be), but the overall direction is POSITIVE.

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Q u o t e:
Very interesting thread.

I don't want to stomp on any of the discussion, so I will just add a few things.

1) We like this change overall, but it is a change. There are going to be some rough edges to smooth out and tweaks to be made. I ask you to defer any of the cheeky "why am I paying to beta test the game" responses. It's an MMO. Things evolve. You want us to make changes when things are off. Believe me. :)

2) We don't want to see anyone sitting on the curb in PvE or PvP. That definitely includes the pure dps classes. If someone isn't getting into dungeons or raids, we'll make some adjustments. If someone isn't viable in Arenas, we'll make adjustments.

3) We've taken our first steps in the buff consolidation plan. More will be coming as we see the plan in action.

4) The fact that we haven't always made such adjustments in a timely manner is brought up a lot, which is totally fair. But I hope our recent actions suggest that we want to be more proactive on this moving forward.

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What we really need is new content. Before the year's out, most guilds would have finished the present content already. In fact, some guilds have already finished the present content completely.

By the time, you do all of the above, most raiders who really care about their classes would have already beaten the game.

I know that there are other "more challenging" raid content that's yet to be released. But they really have to be challenging -- like pre-nerf Vashj, Kael or SWP.

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Q u o t e:


What we really need is new content. Before the year's out, most guilds would have finished the present content already. In fact, some guilds have already finished the present content completely.

By the time, you do all of the above, most raiders who really care about their classes would have already beaten the game.

I know that there are other "more challenging" raid content that's yet to be released. But they really have to be challenging -- like pre-nerf Vashj, Kael or SWP.

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It wasn't terrible difficult to clear through Kara when TBC released either.

This expansion just lacks a "Gruul" at the moment. All content is introductory level, and there isn't a more challenging boss fight currently in the game.

I think (I hope) that Ulduar will provide this, to some extent.