So, I know you're busy and I doubt you'll have time to read much less reply to this, while dealing with the 'more urgent' mass QQ issues.

But I'd love to sit down and talk about priests with you a bit.

This isn't a QQ post, this isn't a "plz fix!" post, it's just a few questions and my concerns.

The first 2 are the more important ones to me. :)

1) What is the "end plan" for the different priest specs? Where do you want them to be for 80 raiding?
Shadow used to be Utility THEN Dps, but it seems to be converted over towards Dps THEN utility (via replenishment).

Disc seems to be heading toward a single target MT healer. Using both mitigation and healing, we're meant to keep up a single tank against large amounts of damage. The mitigation makes it possible to heal without them being destroyed before enough healing is available.

Holy is the one that confuses me. It seems to be the "jack of all trades" healing, being among the top (likely second best) in each needed roll. I have no problems with this, but it overshadows Disc. If Holy Priests are meant to be that #2 healer (good at everything, masters at none), won't it overshadow disc?

From what I've seen right now, Holy has more throughput than Disc at single target healing. Disc doesn't have enough mitigation/utility to make up for it. The only reason I was raiding post 3.0 and pre wotlk was because I'm a dedicated raider. If my guild was looking for the best possible group, a disc priest wouldn't have gone.

I'm just curious as to what your plans are for the end result of priests.

2) I know it's popped up before, you've seen the priests talk about it. Smite spec, or holy dps. Are there any plans to ever make this viable? As far as leveling, it got a moderate buff with 3.0. As far as Raiding, it got a nerf, with the loss of 4% hit.

There will always be the priest that does it whether it's viable or not, but it seems that our necessary talents are split between high end Disc and medium Holy, and for farming/grinding we can't forget the 3 points in Spirit Tap.

Are there plans to make a comprehensive "obvious" holy dps spec?

3) PvP survivability. I'm not 80 yet, so I'm not going to claim that I know what 80 arenas are going to be like. I also know other healers are pondering over similar questions. With 3.0, it seems Disc received a nerf to self survivability, and a bonus to healing other people. Which is great... if you're not being targeted. 90% of arenas I did at 70, however, were burn the healer first. As dps is far more powerful, and self healing/survivability seems weaker, is it going to be balanced later on? I want healer/dps teams to stand a chance against dps/dps teams.

I know you do your tests, and they may have shown that at 80, it is balanced. If so, that's great. Glad to hear it. I'm wondering if you guys know there is a significant concern over this issue though, as it doesn't look too hopeful. For all healers, and not just priests.

4) Utility. It seems Healing priests lack in utility, which frequently makes us second pick for positions in raids. We have Fort, and if Disc, we have spirit. Spirit is practically garbage for a tier 5 buff. The small amount of spirit is pathetic for the few classes it really benefits, and the spell damage buff doesn't stack with the trainable shaman's totem. Please give us a reason to spec into this.

I'm specced into it for solo leveling, as it's a nice self buff. But once you throw a shaman in, it's practically worthless.

Allow me to speak on behalf of GC where I may:

1) Shadow is intended to be a full-fledged DPS spec. Holy is intended to be a 'filler' healer in that it can perform adequately in any of the traditional healing roles (MT main-healer, MT off-healer/buffer, group healing/raid healing). Discipline is intended to excel at MT and spot healing.

2) It was said very recently in no uncertain terms that Smite is not designed to ever be a realistic DPS spec, no matter how you choose to spend your points.

3) They have pledged to keep a constant eye on PvP balance, as they do with all areas of the game. If one class falls behind, they'll take the necessary steps to prop it back up. Priests had a spectacular showing in Seasons 2-4, however, because of Mass Dispel and Mana Burn, so they're wary of tweaking things in the Priests' favor so soon.

4) I can't really speak on the subject of Priest utility, because we haven't gotten a real answer on that, yet. I can say that they feel raid leaders aren't going to stack Shamans and Druids just to have tons of Innervates and Rebirths and Mana Tides and other totems at their disposal - that most raid leaders just want to bring their skilled friends above anything else.

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Q u o t e:
Ok, all is understandable.

Although I believe the post you're referring to in #2 was the one in the holy paladin leveling thread... Where he's talking about currently.

If it's another post please quote/link/summarize it for me, I've been eagerly absorbing all the holy dps knowledge I can. :)

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No, that was the post I was referring to.

GC, one thing I wounder about priest PvP, why is it that Priests have NO armor spells, while Warlocks and mages do? We are more squishy then them, can't kite, can't escape, and our heals can be interrupted very easily, so why do we not have an armor spell?

You can keep charges on Inner Fire, just make it undispellable and your set.

dude, i just hope he reads my god-forsakenly long post about the discipline tree in the Disc Priests thread. Took me like an hour to type that sucker up.

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Q u o t e:
dude, i just hope he reads my god-forsakenly long post about the discipline tree in the Disc Priests thread. Took me like an hour to type that sucker up.

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Knowing how we have been treated for the last year, I doubt it highly.

Who wants to type up one for holy? I'll do it if I have to, but then I'll sound like a drill Sergent or an old vet.

if this one doesnt get his attention, i am going to type up a 4 post long thread about the disc tree, disc priest abilities, and how both intreract with pvp vs pve. might be longer than 4 posts worth, but i really do hope he just reads the one i just posted.

A priest may not be the best in single target healing or raid healing (without CoH) however, they are good at everything in their own way, they can easily replace any kind of healer and are good at any situation which makes them very wanted, they are not 'jack of all trades', they are 'adaptable' to the situation.

A priest who knows how to play is ready for any situation :)

I'd love to know why DS is deep in a tree that really sees no benefit from Spirit. I understand that this was a way to keep every Priest from going full Holy before 3.0, but now that you've supposedly made top tier Disc viable isn't it time to make DS baseline?

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Q u o t e:
Mass Dispel is a great example of an ability that isn't just a carbon copy of another class's ability.

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Any plans to make Mass Dispel usable in 25 man raids? I mean, are you ever going to fix its god-awful targeting of people with no debuffs on them?

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Q u o t e:
if this one doesnt get his attention, i am going to type up a 4 post long thread about the disc tree, disc priest abilities, and how both intreract with pvp vs pve. might be longer than 4 posts worth, but i really do hope he just reads the one i just posted.

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Think you could add Holy into there? I'll be your new best friend :)

Also, I'd recommend you address all the priest bugs that are here, there are a TON of them. Like the Mindflay bug, the Improved Holy concentration bug, the levitate bug, ext....

Lets not forget to address how Meditation, a tier 3 talent, is baseline for ALL priests, DPS, Holy, Disc, you NEED this ability, at least make it tier 1. Heck, either that or make Cruelty and Malace tier 3 (The 5 point 5% crit talents that Rogues and Warriors get.)

You addressed the issue with Duel wield talent in Combat from being 3rd tier to 1st, why not priests?

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Q u o t e:

On the issue of utility, yes our design is that nobody has an ability so awesome or critical that they are gauranteed a raid spot. In truth you can get all of the important buff and debuffs with a relatively small number of players (especially in a 25 raid) so you should be able to bring who you want after that. If some classes bring versions of a buff that are obviously and significantly superior to another's then that is the sort of thing we'll get fixed.

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The problem I see with this, at least personally is that Druids have these types of buffs, but I feel that they need them to get a raid spot. Is there any plan to help encourage choosing Druids as healers (in 25 mans) or does it appear that their spots will be available even without the power of Rebirth and Innervate.

Disclaimer: I am in no way asking for a nerf to Druids, I am simply voicing a concern I have for them with the developers (see this quote above "If some classes bring versions of a buff that are obviously and significantly superior to another's then that is the sort of thing we'll get fixed."). I feel rebirth and innervate are absolutely necessary because I feel Druids would be inadequate as healers in raid without these utility tools.

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Q u o t e:
Think you could add Holy into there? I'll be your new best friend :)

Also, I'd recommend you address all the priest bugs that are here, there are a TON of them. Like the Mindflay bug, the Improved Holy concentration bug, the levitate bug, ext....

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I can, but it will honestly take like 10 posts worth, but ill do it if i can get a confermation that the devs will actually read it. I mean, its no short task to type up an extensive analysis of what is good and bad about the priest class. i do not have enough experience with shadow to do shadow though, so lets get a shadow priest to work with me on this.

I am dedicated holy and I don't want to be a tube of caulk. For raids you get the best you can and then at the end you fill the gaps. GC seems to be implying that I am by definition a second stringer. Bring me along if you can't fill your healing roster with the first string - paladins, druids and shaman. Ooops - we are short a healing spot ... lets drag a priest in to "fill that gap".

And putting acidity aside of the priest specs the only one that really shines in terms of bringing something distinct and unique to the table is the discipline priest. Slowly over time the community will start to understand that bubbles aren't bad (undoing 3 years of conditioning) and discipline should be good to go. The only mildly unique skill a holy priests bring is a long cooldown short term "OH SH!!!" button in the from of Guardian Spirit.

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Q u o t e:
Allow me to speak on behalf of GC where I may:

1) Shadow is intended to be a full-fledged DPS spec. Holy is intended to be a 'filler' healer in that it can perform adequately in any of the traditional healing roles (MT main-healer, MT off-healer/buffer, group healing/raid healing). Discipline is intended to excel at MT and spot healing.

2) It was said very recently in no uncertain terms that Smite is not designed to ever be a realistic DPS spec, no matter how you choose to spend your points.

3) They have pledged to keep a constant eye on PvP balance, as they do with all areas of the game. If one class falls behind, they'll take the necessary steps to prop it back up. Priests had a spectacular showing in Seasons 2-4, however, because of Mass Dispel and Mana Burn, so they're wary of tweaking things in the Priests' favor so soon.

4) I can't really speak on the subject of Priest utility, because we haven't gotten a real answer on that, yet. I can say that they feel raid leaders aren't going to stack Shamans and Druids just to have tons of Innervates and Rebirths and Mana Tides and other totems at their disposal - that most raid leaders just want to bring their skilled friends above anything else.

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1) We all know what Disc is intended to be, but considering what it gives up by not going holy, it's not even close to being competent enough in the role to warrant a raid spot. The whole purpose of a tree boiling down to RNGs and 15 second cooldowns is a silly idea for a tree.

2) No problems with smite, would be nice if I didn't use all or most of my mana killing one thing though, costs way too much for the damage it outputs.

3) Hate PvP, no comment.

4) Utility is still a sore spot, no matter what GC tries to say that it isn't. For some reason Healers don't fall into the "take the player not the class" philosophy, so utility is still important, have no idea how others can't understand that. Water totems being group based are pretty huge since people seem to also forget the ability to instantly cleanse 5 people of poison/disease if you have a shaman in it, something nice for some fights in Naxx. I also still don't understand how the other healers can cure 3 debuffs while we're stuck with 2, and why Mass Dispel is for magic only if we can also cure disease. As of now Mass Dispel sees no use whatsoever, so so much for listing that as a utility idea. DS being as it is is flat out insulting.



Hey GC, while you're here, wasn't Guardian Spirit supposed to be not on the GCD? Thought it was changed that way in beta, but on live it is. It's a neat little spell really. Can you also do ANYTHING with the weak Divine Hymn or Hymn of Hope? Neither are worth using in any kind of raid setting.

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Q u o t e:


I can, but it will honestly take like 10 posts worth, but ill do it if i can get a confermation that the devs will actually read it. I mean, its no short task to type up an extensive analysis of what is good and bad about the priest class. i do not have enough experience with shadow to do shadow though, so lets get a shadow priest to work with me on this.

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Ah, lucky you! thats what my priest is currently, and I've got a great knowlage of Shadow to help you out on. They don't have as many problems, they need DoT protection and better mobility (Latter is a hint, this is a fundamental problem with the entire priest class compared to other clothies) And a new 51 point talent really. They also need Abolish disease castable in shadowform without dropping shadowform.

Most of shadows problems are fundimental to the entire priest class really.

You guys made me feel like one of these "special" kids.

------- "One Tough Cookie" -------