You didn't want people to log into their characters in LK and feel disappointed.

I have 2 level 70 Shaman. I feel disappointed. I tried to level one of them and I just couldn't bring myself to do it. So here I am playing a death knight.

Death Knight is a better designed class, and I'm having fun with it. The design for Shaman needed an overhaul in the way Paladin's received it, and yet..... I'm just left feeling so blah about the two trees; Elemental and Enhancement.

Death Knight is a fresh design. New ways to think about playing and doing things. I like that. Good job. Even Paladin has a bit of that now. I like the overhauled seals and judgement system. Very effective. The decision making is better. Just what was needed, in my opinion (I have a 70 prot pally, on another account though).

But what about both my Shaman? Enhance is a little more fun. But sitting next to my death knight, I have no urge to bother now. Death Knight simply does what an Enhance Shaman could never do, even though they were your original "battle mage" as it were.

I don't care about what's happened in the past. I've been playing Shaman since Jan. 05 and while I feel Shaman were good in the early days following launch, they have forever since been plagued with an issue people loosely refer to as "scaling." And by that I'm not talking about the scaling people are mentioning in the Elemental tree.

Not just numbers. GC... you focus on numbers all too frequently, which is fine.... But what about mechanics, method, implementation... design? The method in which a class does what it does. How actions are carried out. I like totems. But play Warcraft 3. Totems there were amazing because you could 1) Place them wherever you wanted and 2) they friggin ruled. They could turn the tide of a battle.

Totems now? Not so much. There's just so many, the whole system feels sloppy and tired. Old. Archaic. Boring. Not streamlined. Little or no synergy. Dropping 2 to 4 totems every fight? Do you know how long that can take? No thanks, I just skip it these days (and by these days, I mean for years now -- I mean sure I use them as much as I should, but guh, they feel more punishing than rewarding). Needless to say, they don't hit the floor while I'm alone or not dungeoning or raiding. Except in PvP when I need a tremor or grounding totem. Yep, that's it.

Challenge Mode!

Play Death Knight for a few hours. Then try playing an Enhance Shaman.
Play a Boomkin. Then switch to Elemental Shaman.

Do this for PvE and PvP. It rather makes me want to cry, anyway. How do you feel? Sure, I want classes to be different. Of course. That's the whole point of different classes. The last thing I want is my Shaman to feel like my DK. But shouldn't they at least be equally fun? Equally useful in similar situations -- that is as melee DPS... or even ranged DPS (in the Boomkin case)? My issue is not with the numbers, I hope you can tell. I feel busy playing my DK. I feel like my every decision is important and vital to my damage output. I'm engaged.

I'm almost exactly opposite for my Shaman.

As for healing. Can't complain much there. Wish Tidal Waves increased speed on Chain Heals, but I can live without that (I hate spamming CH anyway, a new rotation is welcome). Water Shield maintenance should be looked at (as is I will always avoid Imp Water Shield because I have enough buttons to press and things to worry about, don't need to baby sit Water Shield too -- did you not notice how annoying that would be with Tidal Force and/or our naturally high crit?)

Rogues didn't really get any changes to playstyle, unless you count nerfed shadowstep.

Trust me, your class isn't the only one who feels bleh... I wonder if your class is too "mathy" to do cool things, too?

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Q u o t e:
Rogues didn't really get any changes to playstyle, unless you count nerfed shadowstep.

Trust me, your class isn't the only one who feels bleh... I wonder if your class is too "mathy" to do cool things, too?

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I have a 70 Rogue as well.

I opted to leave those "daggers" for another thread =)

EDIT: But in seriousness, I don't mind my rogue's playstyle remaining largely the same. Rogues have always been pretty fun. Combo points, though old, are more engaging than watching Stormstrike refresh every 10 seconds (or 8 if you talent it). Stealthing around and just being a bastard in general, is great times, I don't care who you are.

As for the mathy business, GC did mention they'd work on making Windfury less mathy?

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Q u o t e:

I have 2 level 70 Shaman. I feel disappointed. I tried to level one of them and I just couldn't bring myself to do it.

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I would suggest its quite possible that:

- shamans are ok
- you levelled two of them and burned out on shamans at twice the rate of the average shaman
- you're looking for something new and cool
- deathknights are new
- deathknights are cool

Classes should NOT all be equally fun. My mage is the only class i've had fun with.

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Q u o t e:

I would suggest its quite possible that:

- shamans are ok
- you levelled two of them and burned out on shamans at twice the rate of the average shaman
- you're looking for something new and cool
- deathknights are new
- deathknights are cool

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Fair enough. But it's not so much the case. When you find yourself creating custom war3 maps creating the Shaman you feel is proper, you probably love the class, but hate the implementation or mechanics woes you experience with them on a daily basis.

No, I rather have been playing DK because I feel it's how a magic based meeler should be. My other choice was to change my prot paladin to retribution, however, I'd have to entirely re-gear her, and she's currently in a RAF program with lowbs who require the prot owange.

But I appreciate the suggestions.

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Q u o t e:
Classes should NOT all be equally fun. My mage is the only class i've had fun with.

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I don't see how that is at all relevant to the discussion? So because you prefer mage, means no other class should be fun?

Or have you simply found your niche?

My niche is Shaman, a class many have argued is plagued with mechanical and design issues. I'm merely making a similar argument.

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Q u o t e:
You didn't want people to log into their characters in LK and feel disappointed.

I have 2 level 70 Shaman. I feel disappointed. I tried to level one of them and I just couldn't bring myself to do it. So here I am playing a death knight.

Death Knight is a better designed class, and I'm having fun with it. The design for Shaman needed an overhaul in the way Paladin's received it, and yet..... I'm just left feeling so blah about the two trees; Elemental and Enhancement.

Death Knight is a fresh design. New ways to think about playing and doing things. I like that. Good job. Even Paladin has a bit of that now. I like the overhauled seals and judgement system. Very effective. The decision making is better. Just what was needed, in my opinion (I have a 70 prot pally, on another account though).

But what about both my Shaman? Enhance is a little more fun. But sitting next to my death knight, I have no urge to bother now. Death Knight simply does what an Enhance Shaman could never do, even though they were your original "battle mage" as it were.

I don't care about what's happened in the past. I've been playing Shaman since Jan. 05 and while I feel Shaman were good in the early days following launch, they have forever since been plagued with an issue people loosely refer to as "scaling." And by that I'm not talking about the scaling people are mentioning in the Elemental tree.

Not just numbers. GC... you focus on numbers all too frequently, which is fine.... But what about mechanics, method, implementation... design? The method in which a class does what it does. How actions are carried out. I like totems. But play Warcraft 3. Totems there were amazing because you could 1) Place them wherever you wanted and 2) they friggin ruled. They could turn the tide of a battle.

Totems now? Not so much. There's just so many, the whole system feels sloppy and tired. Old. Archaic. Boring. Not streamlined. Little or no synergy. Dropping 2 to 4 totems every fight? Do you know how long that can take? No thanks, I just skip it these days (and by these days, I mean for years now -- I mean sure I use them as much as I should, but guh, they feel more punishing than rewarding). Needless to say, they don't hit the floor while I'm alone or not dungeoning or raiding. Except in PvP when I need a tremor or grounding totem. Yep, that's it.

Challenge Mode!

Play Death Knight for a few hours. Then try playing an Enhance Shaman.
Play a Boomkin. Then switch to Elemental Shaman.

Do this for PvE and PvP. It rather makes me want to cry, anyway. How do you feel? Sure, I want classes to be different. Of course. That's the whole point of different classes. The last thing I want is my Shaman to feel like my DK. But shouldn't they at least be equally fun? Equally useful in similar situations -- that is as melee DPS... or even ranged DPS (in the Boomkin case)? My issue is not with the numbers, I hope you can tell. I feel busy playing my DK. I feel like my every decision is important and vital to my damage output. I'm engaged.

I'm almost exactly opposite for my Shaman.

As for healing. Can't complain much there. Wish Tidal Waves increased speed on Chain Heals, but I can live without that (I hate spamming CH anyway, a new rotation is welcome). Water Shield maintenance should be looked at (as is I will always avoid Imp Water Shield because I have enough buttons to press and things to worry about, don't need to baby sit Water Shield too -- did you not notice how annoying that would be with Tidal Force and/or our naturally high crit?)

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Not everyone thinks every class is fun.
From my last post I was implying that most people wouldn't say that all classes are fun.

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Q u o t e:

Not everyone thinks every class is fun.
From my last post I was implying that most people wouldn't say that all classes are fun.

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Well that's not true. In fact, it's probably the opposite. Most people either don't have the time or they simply are content with playing 1 or 2 classes because they feel they make more progress that way, rather than bothering with all 10.

I experience as much as I can. That's how I play. But because you prefer one playstyle, doesn't negate the other 9. And because you feel the way you do, certainly doesn't mean everyone does.

Some might. Many might. But not all.

Because I have 6 RL friends that play this game, all of which play different classes, I have had a chance to play each at level 70. I have played a rogue to 60 using RAF and also a pally. One of my good friends plays an enh shaman and its nice to play every once and a while. If I had to choose, I would say that shamans are my 2nd favorite class, but nothing can compare to my mage. I haven't tried a death knight yet because I haven't had much time to play since the expansion came out.

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Q u o t e:
While that is the goal (that you have fun with your class), we have to be careful with forum posters swinging around fun like a big (Ret) hammer. I have seen several posts where someone essentially said "GC, my class isn't fun. You must add all of these new talents I came up with to make it fun." That's just a cautionary note to everyone that you don't need to preface all of your feedback with "My class isn't fun" or "I'm going to reroll unless...." kind of stuff.

I actually agree with you about totems. They are a really cool idea on paper that has never quite lived up to that concept in reality. We do have some ideas on things we'd like to try with them, but it will require some experimentation and isn't the kind of thing we can just hotfix in. There have been many suggestions from the community on totems already, but feel free to add more. Just know that our vision is not to turn totems into the same kinds of buffs that other classes have. They have to be, you know, totems.

I'm glad you like the death knight. It's nice to see what we can come up with when we are unburdened by four years of baggage on the existing classes. The next step is to strip away some of that existing baggage and get all 10 classes feeling really fun. :)

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AHA! So THIS is where you've been hiding!

I'm really enjoying the hunter in PvE for what it's worth.

PvP, not quite so much. Too much time on the defensive, and when I finally do get to use some offense my offensive burst pales in comparison to what I just received.

But kudos on the new pet system, disengage, aspects, lock and load, etc.

what i got out of this topic

" i prefer the playstyle of another class to my own, so i rolled that class instead "


how does that make your original class bad ? i prefer the play style of ret pallies over rogues, doesn't make rogues bad, or less desirable to play for others in the new expansion. weird that it took you 2 level 70's before you realized you didn't like the playstyle of shaman, or maybe it's just the only one you like better is deathknight? which means you still prefer shaman over every other class except deathknights... in which case ghostcrawler and blizzard have delivered by giving you a class you enjoy even more.

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Q u o t e:
It's nice to see what we can come up with when we are unburdened by four years of baggage on the existing classes. The next step is to strip away some of that existing baggage and get all 10 classes feeling really fun. :)

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Wow really...4 years? 1 Class every four years? that's like 36 years before they're all done! guess it's one way to ensure on-going employment! :-p

*Edited because I can't spell 4
O.o

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Q u o t e:


Well that's not true. In fact, it's probably the opposite. Most people either don't have the time or they simply are content with playing 1 or 2 classes because they feel they make more progress that way, rather than bothering with all 10.

I experience as much as I can. That's how I play. But because you prefer one playstyle, doesn't negate the other 9. And because you feel the way you do, certainly doesn't mean everyone does.

Some might. Many might. But not all.

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well that's not true. you're generalizing.

I've played 2 classes to 70, hunter and mage. i've played almost every other class to at least 20, some higher (no dk, need a working computer for wrath) and i just didn't like the play style of any of them. they weren't fun. to me, the only fun classes are hunter and mage. the concepts and play styles of these 2 classes.

fun is not stable. there is no definitive measuring stick for it. it varies from person to person. that is why your statement is flawed

I want my totems to sprout leggs and follow me around where I go...

or, we could put 'em in a cart and wheel 'em around...

no?

:o(

Ironically, I'm leveling a DK and an enhancement shaman right now - while I definitely love the DK because it's new and shiny, you have to understand that it's that way because it's NEW AND SHINY. I've been playing both of them a lot, but I've been playing my shaman since BC launch and honestly, it's just starting to get a little old.

Would I love to see a complete rehaul of the class? Sure, that sounds fun. Is it a good use of their time to constantly overhaul classes? No.

You know what is really hilarious?

I've cleared 10man naxx and gotten 3 or 4 epics from there, upgraded a few things from heroics and just now did the 25man Obsidium Sanctum. Every other item i'm wearing is from BT or Sunwell.


A deathknight who hit level 80 yesterday is wearing quest rewards and did 190k more damage than I did..

Sweet eh?

Quick nerf ret pallies!!!