Can we have one? I can pretty much confidently say that there is no spec of the paladin class that is happy with the current state of avenging wrath. I am specifically referring to it causing Forbearance for 2 min.

-Prot isn't comfortable using it because it means they are hanging their healers out to dry for 2 min instead of saving the forbearance for an emergency Divine Protection.

-Holy doesn't like it because they lose their bubble if they feel like doing a little DPS (grinding / whatever...) or the extra healing boost they get in a bind.

-Retribution doesn't like it because we almost can't touch it anymore. In PvP you might as well change the wings to a Big Bullseye for 2 min. In PvE its almost better to save your bubble in case you need it...

Now the main reason that the change was made (as far as I can tell) is to prevent retribution paladins from going on a bubblewings killing spree for 12 seconds...(I have other thoughts about this being a non-viable PvP strat, but for the sake of saving this thread from an apocalypse of flames and QQ I'll save it). Before launch there was some talk of putting Divine Shield and Avenging Wrath on the same 30 sec CD and getting rid of the Forbearance on Avenging Wrath. Now I'm not going to be one of those posters who is all like "ZOMG YOU PROMISED!!! GIMME!" However, I will say that I haven't heard one complaint about this solution, and it seems to me to be the fix of all fixes (ie...everyone is happy).

I guess the main thing I am a little frustrated about is that it seems like hotfix nerfs get implemented quickly and hotFIXES get turned into weeks...months....years. I can completely understand that you guys have had your hands full with the launch and everything and that's cool with me. I can't even begin to imagine everything needed to pull that off. It just seems to me like everything is running smoothly...minus a few quest bugs and some server queues (ouch), and I don't want this to fall off the radar when it seems to be a great fix for everyone.


TLDR---> Avenging Wrath suggestion to put it on a shared 30 sec CD with Divine Shield was a great one and would make everyone happy and prevent the bubblewings crap...lets do it!

EDIT* sp / grammar

Changing title for people that might not realize what Avenging Wrath is ;)

Ret pallies are critting around 5k at level 71 with avenging wrath. It really doesn't need to be buffed.

The gylph for AW is useless... reduce CD by 50%.

For ret 1minute

Forbance is 2min

LOL GG blizz

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Q u o t e:
The gylph for AW is useless... reduce CD by 50%.

For ret 1minute

Forbance is 2min

LOL GG blizz

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What? The glyph reduces the cooldown of Hammer of Wrath by 50%, while Avenging Wrath is active.

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Q u o t e:
Ret pallies are critting around 5k at level 71 with avenging wrath. It really doesn't need to be buffed.

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So you're wearing 0 resilience and he's swinging apolyon, and you're complaining that it hurts?

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Q u o t e:
Ret pallies are critting around 5k at level 71 with avenging wrath. It really doesn't need to be buffed.

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We don't want it buffed (and that is setting aside the fact I am yet to see a 5k crit on any target). We want it usable.

AW and bubble should be treated like an aura, you can only have one on at a time. Get rid of forbearance affecting AW and just have it that if you bubble with wings up the wings are instantly cancelled, and if you cast wings when under the bubble then the bubble is removed.

Going by the remove aura line used in fear macros to remove DS I assume that AW and DS could easily share a second aura spot.

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Q u o t e:
Ret pallies are critting around 5k at level 71 with avenging wrath. It really doesn't need to be buffed.

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There are a couple points that I would like to make.

First, this post / suggestion is not talking about buffing Avenging Wrath. This is talking about making it usable again, because as of right now most paladins don't.

Second, I consider myself a decently geared pally. Not the best of the best or anything (yes I know I have S2 shoulders and weapon), but post nerfs I have NEVER hit anything for 5k with Avenging Wrath up. I hit 73 yesterday noticed a crit for 3k, but that was on a lvl 74 mob.

Thanks for your input though.

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Q u o t e:
Ret pallies are critting around 5k at level 71 with avenging wrath. It really doesn't need to be buffed.

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WAS balanced at 80, not 70 or 71. NOW is piss poor weak at 80, balanced at 70.

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Q u o t e:
Second, I consider myself a decently geared pally. Not the best of the best or anything (yes I know I have S2 shoulders and weapon), but post nerfs I have NEVER hit anything for 5k with Avenging Wrath up. I hit 73 yesterday noticed a crit for 3k, but that was on a lvl 74 mob.

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In somewhat better gear I've been having judgement of the martyr crit for 3.3k-3.4k since level 70. Recount told me it crit Illidan for 6608 once, too, but that's beside the point...

first? sounds good to me :)

Nice.

2 minute forbearance with wings was getting to be a little ridiculous, especially since I could just spellsteal it or just iceblock through it.

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Q u o t e:
That last part is still the plan.

There are limitations to what we can hotfix. Those are essentially server-side changes. Changes to your client require an actual patch. Patches, sadly, are much more difficult to do. That doesn't mean it isn't important to us. It just means we have to test patches very thoroughly. Breaking everyone's WoW is almost always a lot worse than whatever bug or issue we were trying to fix.

We will patch this before the first major content patch (Ulduar AKA 3.1).

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Wouldn't it be better to delay hotfixing something when the effects of the hotfix are sever enough that they will need to be addressed in client patch anyway? Leaving abilities essentially broken for long periods isn't exactly fun.

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Q u o t e:


Well sure, all things considered. But in this case, unskilled and badly geared paladins being able to destroy other players in PvP trumped any fun the paladins may have had by combining AW and DS. It was an emergency fix.

(Lest this gets turned into "Ret was nerfed for PvP" that was the case in this particular example. Bubble wings isn't a major PvE issue. However, Ret was doing too much damage in PvE as well before the much publicized nerfs.)

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Instead of fixing it correctly, Paladins recived a double nerf to avenging wrath. Grats on screwing Paladins yet again.

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Q u o t e:
We will patch this before the first major content patch (Ulduar AKA 3.1).

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This better be soon, as you don't want Nihilum/SKgaming bored and quit your game...

-sol™

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Q u o t e:


That last part is still the plan.

There are limitations to what we can hotfix. Those are essentially server-side changes. Changes to your client require an actual patch. Patches, sadly, are much more difficult to do. That doesn't mean it isn't important to us. It just means we have to test patches very thoroughly. Breaking everyone's WoW is almost always a lot worse than whatever bug or issue we were trying to fix.

We will patch this before the first major content patch (Ulduar AKA 3.1).

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See, this is exactly what the OP was talking about when he mentioned hotfix nerfs vs hotfix buffs. You tossed out dozens of paladin nerfs at the drop of a hat (including this one) directly to live servers at the same time you put them on the beta servers, how is that "testing them very thoroughly"?

I don't mean to sound rude, but paladins have been told to wait for fixes for years now, and all the excuses went flying out the window when we saw how quickly you nerfed us with zero testing.