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Q u o t e:


No its just that warriors fault for not leveling an alt. Leveling is easy, getting the right gear is whats hard.

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A bad argument is a bad argument. So why should paladins and druids be made equal to warriors? If they wanted to tank end game bosses they could level alts.

Also by your argument getting the gear is the hard part. Getting main gear and offgear for 1 toon is MUCH easier than getting main gear for 2 toons.

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Q u o t e:


A bad argument is a bad argument. So why should paladins and druids be made equal to warriors? If they wanted to tank end game bosses they could level alts.

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Cause warriors are hybrids just like everyone else and do not deserve the game handed to them on a silver plater. They wanna be THE tank, then guess what arms and fury trees are deleted from the game.

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Q u o t e:

Also by your argument getting the gear is the hard part. Getting main gear and offgear for 1 toon is MUCH easier than getting main gear for 2 toons.

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So your answer is to be a Loot !#%## or gimp yourself by wasting badges. Yeah bet DPS and healers really want to play you.

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Q u o t e:


No its not, that is not even on the same planet. You are the atypical WAAAAAArrior who will cry and cry to big daddy Blizzard until the hybrids are all put in their place healing YOU.

Simply put if you want your version of class balance, guess what time for fury and arms to suck on nerf after nerf till the whole lot of you reroll rogues like you should have anyways.

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Again I am not advocating a one tank better than other idea. Just pointing out your argument is BAD.

GC has said that pure classes should and will end up doing more dps (all else being equal) than hybrid classes. That does not mean that they won't be very close, close enough were a good warrior can out do a rogue. What she is saying is by that same logic the 2 spec hybrid should be slightly better than a 3 spec hybrid. Not far enough apart that the 3 spec hybrid that is good won't be able to out do the 2 spec hybrid but all else being equal...give us something to make up for not having that 3rd spec.

Please try and construct logical arguments.

Ohhh and just to stoop to your level... warrirors have had to listen to you guys whine and moan for years now, and you still do it.

I find it somewhat amusing, the number of warriors frantically trying to hang the millstone of hybridity, especially with regards to healing, on the collective Paladin/Druid neck. Open your eyes, people. Past history and all that aside, Warriors are the class with the least justification for trying to hold anyone else back or bring them down. Over these past few weeks you've heard Paladin concerns of health, mitigation and threat, Druid concerns of itemization and AoE, and while not every argument is valid, anyone who hasn't received a frontal brain lobotomy should concede that there are a few things which need fixing or may be causes for concern.

Yet it's not good enough that Paladins and Druids struggle with ITEMS, something which they have no control over. It's not good enough that the Prot Warrior tree received an immense overhaul, gaining new and interactive abilities second only to death knights if that. It's not good enough that Warriors have community inertia to help them into tanking spots. It's not good enough that Warriors seem to be the ONLY class with the majority of players happy with their class changes. After all this, you're still trying to play this silly shell game of who has more specs?

Think about it for a second. If Blizzard had a formula whereby "Whosoever shall have 4 roles, his effectiveness in all specs shall be reduced by an amount not to be lesser than 15%. And whosoever shall have 3 roles, yea, he too shall have all effectiveness reduced by an amount no less than 10% Yea, for he who has 2 roles shall suffer only a loss of 5% in all effectiveness. Only he who shall have but 1 role may play without penalty" then why would people play those "lesser" classes? The old hybrid philosophy was shown to be a dud; when you design intended roadblocks to healing/DPS/tanking into a class' trees, you make the game less fun for the people who end up stuck being the buffbots and the walking bloodlust that drops totems.

To this end they decided to balance it both ways and give hybrids the tools they needed to compete with the "pure" specs while letting those pure specs bring some extra utility along. Whether or not you want to admit it, Sunder is a utility, and a significant one. Ghostcrawler has said before they "assume full sunders" when taking boss design and player DPS into consideration. Intervene is utility, even if like Hand of Sacrifice it doesn't get used except in a few situations. Shouts are also utility; a lot of warriors have complained that "oh, the pally will buff might and then battle shout is worthless no utility QQ" while not ever considering that the Paladin might want to buff something ELSE like Kings or Sanctuary and let Battle Shout fill in the AP buff slot. Believe it or not, Demo Shout is utility too.

So, fine. If you want shouts to be 5 or 10 minutes long, I could live with that. I might even say it's overdue; at first all Paladin blessings were 5 minutes. Then Greater Blessings were introduced and made 15. Then blessing duration was doubled for both. The point of that is, it IS a legitimate issue that constantly rebuffing a short-term buff is not fun. Paladins complained that it wasn't fun and many will tell you of Molten Chore nightmares of buffing a 40-man raid with 5-minute buffs. But for the love of all that's holy, please don't try to smokescreen the issue and try to hamstring Paladins and Druids with the "heal penalty".

Adahn:

If you have payed attention to anything I've posted in this thread, I've stated multiple times that I'm not prot and never have been, so the change doesn't actually affect me.

So grow up, stop avoiding the questions ever so immaturely, and actually make valid points... or any points for that matter.

The point of balancing classes is to have classes happy with their state and not have people rerolling because of it, so stop telling me to do that. If that were the case, Blizzard would've had just as easy of a time making one awesome tank class and telling all the others to reroll.

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Q u o t e:
GC has said that pure classes should and will end up doing more dps (all else being equal) than hybrid classes. That does not mean that they won't be very close, close enough were a good warrior can out do a rogue. What she is saying is by that same logic the 2 spec hybrid should be slightly better than a 3 spec hybrid. Not far enough apart that the 3 spec hybrid that is good won't be able to out do the 2 spec hybrid but all else being equal...give us something to make up for not having that 3rd spec

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BZZT.

Wrong sorry try again. The original quote was in reference to "hybrid versus pure" in DPS. Number of specs had nothing to do with it, and therefore you cannot extrapolate "by the same logic..." from it.

Hybrids can choose from more than 1 role.
Pures can choose from only 1 role.

I also doubt Druids will appreciate you arguing that they should be further gimped because of the number of specs and roles they can accomodate.

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Q u o t e:


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V



Also, if you want to base this on other MMOs, WoW is the most successful MMO to date. Clearly their design decisions are better than those "past" mmos that you were talking about in your first post. But if you don't like the way this game is setup then you could just go play one of those other MMOs that have the warrior as the only tank.

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Everquest. Viable classes to tank were, Warriors/Paladins/Shadow knights
those classes were also viable classes to do capable damage out put.
yes, the warrior would usually Main Tank
World of Warcraft classes viable to tank : Warrior/Druid/Paladin/DeathKnight
yes, the warrior would usually Main Tank
those classes were also viable classes to do capabe damage out put

question that every other class that could tank just as good as a warrior was,
"/w (insertguildleadername) so....i can make as much TPS and more capable of surviving the outcome aka. armor,hp,avoidance, why can't i main tank the raid boss?"

oh yeah, i forgot people are stubborn and don't like changes, remember PRE-TBC ret pally for a 40-man? point and laugh, GTFO and heal

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Q u o t e:



Again I am not advocating a one tank better than other idea. Just pointing out your argument is BAD.

GC has said that pure classes should and will end up doing more dps (all else being equal) than hybrid classes. That does not mean that they won't be very close, close enough were a good warrior can out do a rogue. What she is saying is by that same logic the 2 spec hybrid should be slightly better than a 3 spec hybrid. Not far enough apart that the 3 spec hybrid that is good won't be able to out do the 2 spec hybrid but all else being equal...give us something to make up for not having that 3rd spec.

Please try and construct logical arguments.


Ohhh and just to stoop to your level... warrirors have had to listen to you guys whine and moan for years now, and you still do it.

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Bull %%!% you are arguing exactly that you should be the best tank, what do you think that massive paragraph means. You are nothing but a hypocritical douche bag who has gorged himself eating the rogues cake for 4 years while trying to keep everyone away from your own.

Its always amusing that its the DPS warriors who are the ones making these arguments and never the prot ones.

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Q u o t e:

Adahn:

If you have payed attention to anything I've posted in this thread, I've stated multiple times that I'm not prot and never have been, so the change doesn't actually affect me.

So grow up, stop avoiding the questions ever so immaturely, and actually make valid points... or any points for that matter.

The point of balancing classes is to have classes happy with their state and not have people rerolling because of it, so stop telling me to do that. If that were the case, Blizzard would've had just as easy of a time making one awesome tank class and telling all the others to reroll.

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And yet you are perfectly fine telling druids and paladins to reroll if they want to tank. You don't deserve any respect, all you do is spit in peoples faces and lie but hey you did it while smiling so everyone should still be nice to you right?

Here is the point. All tanks need to be balance, any tank that is better than the others either needs to be nerfed or the other brought up to par. There is no pure tanking class, all tanks are hybrids therefore nobody should be worse. Blizzard has not lived up to this goal and still has work to do.

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Q u o t e:
Think about it for a second. If Blizzard had a formula whereby "Whosoever shall have 4 roles, his effectiveness in all specs shall be reduced by an amount not to be lesser than 15%. And whosoever shall have 3 roles, yea, he too shall have all effectiveness reduced by an amount no less than 10% Yea, for he who has 2 roles shall suffer only a loss of 5% in all effectiveness. Only he who shall have but 1 role may play without penalty" then why would people play those "lesser" classes?

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The fact that there are players who still play Fury at all (such as myself) conflicts your entire argument.

Like I have said many times over, the point isn't buffs - it's roles that the class can play. I can whine about my shouts being useless, but it's hardly the point at all.


Edit:

Adahn:

"And yet you are perfectly fine telling druids and paladins to reroll if they want to tank. You don't deserve any respect, all you do is spit in peoples faces and lie but hey you did it while smiling so everyone should still be nice to you right? "

What a ridiculous statement. You realize that when I said paladins and druids should reroll, it was a by-your-logic statement. You only proved how absurd what you originally said was - that warriors should respec rogues for damage. Read through the post, please.

No one should be the best tank. If they are, they become the option everyone will take, and Blizzard has failed. No one needs to argue about it, because Blizzard knows that and will address any imbalances if they do arise, whether people QQ or not.

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Q u o t e:


The goal is roughly equivalent. The goal is not identical. Identical would mean making all abilities identical, down to things like Divine Shield and Innervate. I also want to caution you all that there are plenty of players who are concerned about the degree of homogenization we’ve done to get the tank classes as close as they are. It’s cool for everyone to have their different visions for what the game should be, just make sure not to impose your vision on everyone else. There are eleven million people playing WoW….

As far as the other arguments are concerned…

-- You can argue that our design is for warriors to be the best tanks. But I can debunk that right here. It's not. They will probably be superior in some cases and inferior in others, but never to the extent that you bench the warrior and bring in another class for a certain fight.
-- You can argue that some classes need to tank worse than others to compensate for their other abilities or degree of hybrid-ness. But that is not our design.
-- You can argue that some classes end up being better tanks for some reason or another. This is a totally legit concern. I don’t think we have any evidence that this is really happening yet, but it is something we pay a lot of attention to.

-- In Classic WoW there was really only one tank, the warrior.
-- In Burning Crusade, we added two other tanks, but the design was that they were typically used in an OT role. There were exceptions of course.
-- The design for Lich King is four tanking classes. You should be able to raid in Lich King without a warrior tank, or without a warrior period. You can replace “warrior” in that sentence with 9 other classes. One of the reasons we spent so much time on the warrior Prot tree is we wanted to compensate them for removing them from the “best tank” pedestal, or at least making room up there for druids, paladins and DKs as well.

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Your Honor, the defense rests.

EDIT: Everyone else is slow for letting me get in a first on a horrible computer on the other side of the world.

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Q u o t e:
. You should be able to raid in Lich King without a warrior tank, or without a warrior period. You can replace “warrior” in that sentence with 9 other classes. One of the reasons we spent so much time on the warrior Prot tree is we wanted to compensate them for removing them from the “best tank” pedestal, or at least making room up there for druids, paladins and DKs as well.

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Out of curiosity, how do Blessing of Kings and Blessing of Sanctuary fit into this? I simply can't see why that isn't "too big" of a deal to necessitate bringing people along just for those. You can live without Battleresses, without Innervates, but would it be better to equalise say Kings with Mark of the Wild, hypothetically?

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Q u o t e:
other side of the world.

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Guilty as charged :)

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Q u o t e:


Out of curiosity, how do Blessing of Kings and Blessing of Sanctuary fit into this? I simply can't see why that isn't "too big" of a deal to necessitate bringing people along just for those. You can live without Battleresses, without Innervates, but would it be better to equalise say Kings with Mark of the Wild?

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This is just my personal theory, but I think in a very soon upcoming patch they're going to release another set of fairly significant Paladin changes, and because they're working on it right now, nothing is being said. Ghostcrawler has a tendency to clam up on a subject when that same subject is currently being reviewed by the developers. (No offense intended GC.)

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Q u o t e:


This is just my personal theory, but I think in a very soon upcoming patch they're going to release another set of fairly significant Paladin changes, and because they're working on it right now, nothing is being said. Ghostcrawler has a tendency to clam up on a subject when that same subject is currently being reviewed by the developers. (No offense intended GC.)

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Yeah, I don't really expect a response, but it's a good time for me to point that out just in case they weren't aware of it already. And there's always the chance that they think Kings isn't as great as say I think it is, or great enough that a raid will need one. I personally think otherwise if that's the case, but opinions be opinions.

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Q u o t e:
-- You can argue that some classes need to tank worse than others to compensate for their other abilities or degree of hybrid-ness. But that is not our design.

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I appreciate the fact that you've responded to the concerns I've had, but I think the question on a lot of the warrior community's minds is a 'why?' I understand that it was not your design, as it's been stated that all four classes should tank equally, but I was looking for more of a reason that this was the design in the first place - a justification, if you will.

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Q u o t e:



I appreciate the fact that you've responded to the concerns I've had, but I think the question on a lot of the warrior community's minds is a 'why?' I understand that it was not your design, as it's been stated that all four classes should tank equally, but I was looking for more of a reason that this was the design in the first place - a justification, if you will.

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Because you don't heal while tanking?

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Q u o t e:


The goal is roughly equivalent. The goal is not identical. Identical would mean making all abilities identical, down to things like Divine Shield and Innervate. As far as the other arguments are concerned…

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Let Druids cast Innervate and Rebirth in Bear form via PotP and that arguement might actually count. I hear people bring that up a lot, about how Druids can Brez and heal, but its a fallacy because it cannot be done in a 25 man raid setting. Its utility of a Cat, but not of a Bear.

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Q u o t e:

One of the reasons we spent so much time on the warrior Prot tree is we wanted to compensate them for removing them from the “best tank” pedestal, or at least making room up there for druids, paladins and DKs as well.

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Wait, so you clearly spent a significantly more amount of time on the Warrior Prot tree to 'compensate them for removing them from the "best tank pedestal"? You spent the most time on the already best itemized, and best designed class in the game that was the best MT, did great dps damage, and was the center piece almost all top Arena teams? They actually needed compensation for being the best at everything they did since launch?

That's like giving your favorite child of four the best piece of cinnamon buns (the middle one is the best) first every day, and when the other children are old enough to know what's going on you take turns taking the middle piece. But you give the favorite child first dibs on the icing as "compensation."

The reason, GC, people QQ about Warriors being the #1 tank is because they are treated like they are. Pallies don't even have a single target taunt, and Ferals... Poor Ferals, they don't even know what their crappy fate is going to be. You say you like to keep abilities from being copied, but you gave the DK aoe similar to the Pally. And worst of all, you gave the Warrior a Damage Shield that actually works (unlike Thorns) AND the Warrior got the good copy of Frenzied Regeneration. All in the name of "flavor." Well, Feral tastes like sh!t.

I mean seriously. How is anyone going to believe you when you say that all tanks are supposed to be equivalent? Warriors get a great reworking of their tree, and Feral feels like it was forgotten about and overlooked through most of Beta. Warriors are well itemized and thought out. Some of the other tanks are valitdated in feeling like afterthoughts.

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Q u o t e:
When you rolled your paladin did you think wow i want to main tank with it?

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yes i did. And i think it is awsome for blizz to allow many different styles of tanking. Why cant their be 3 main types of tanks?

Thanks GC for your post, I think most people realize tanks overall are suppose to be equal now. However, there are still people who cling to old ideals or think that one tank should be gimped over another and it's really infuriating to other tanks to hear these things but it's good to know Blizzard confirming yet again you aren't interested in intentionally creating tanking disparities that hurt x, y, or z tanks overall.

I don't know why some people can't accept that everyone should have an equal shot at tanking. Bring the player, not the class.