Grr @ the minute between posting :-P

The following is stolen from ranma on the EJ Forums.

Regrowth Rank 12
29% of base mana
2 sec cast
Heals a friendly target for 2234 to 2494 (2364 avg.)and another 2345 over 21 sec. (7 ticks)

+healing bonus
30% on Direct Heal, 70% on HoT. (My observation was 28.57% on Direct Heal, 70% on HoT, I takes 30% as correct number anyway)

Talent/Glyph
1. Gift of Nature, Imp/Tree Form, Master Shapeshifter +flat healing or +% healing done on all healing spells
2. Improved Regrowth, crits rate + 50%
3. Living Seed 30% of Direct Crits Heal Goes to next incoming hit.
4. Empowered Rejuvenation +20% healing Bonus Healing
5. Tree of Life Form Mana Cost Reduced By 20%
6. Genesis HoT part +5% (I don't know whether it affects DH part of regrowth like ER. I assume it doesn't)
7. Nature's Grace Pretty much discussed for -0.5s cast time upon crits
8. Nature's Splendor HoT duration +6s (2 ticks)
9. Moonglow: mana cost reduced by 9%
10. Regrowth Glyph: Healing +20% if another regrowth HoT is active.
11. Natural Perfection: Spell Crits +3%

Mana Cost after all talents:
29% * 0.91 * 0.80 = 21.112%
DH: (2364 + Heal*0.3*1.2) * 1.2(glyph for spam). Given 50% crits rate (which is a bit hard to get, but not unapproachable)
DH: (2364 + Heal*0.3*1.2) * 1.2 * 1.5(Crits) * 1.3(LS) = 5531.8 + Healing * 0.8424
HoT (2345 + Heal*0.7*1.2) * 1.05(genesis) * 1.2(glyph) * (9/7)(+tick) = 3798.9 + Healing * 1.3608

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nourish:
Nourish Rank 1
18% of base mana 40 yd range
1.5 sec cast
Heals a friendly target for 1883 to 2187(2035 avg.). Heals for an additional 20% if you have a Rejuvenation, Regrowth, or Lifebloom effect active on the target.

Talent/Glyph
1. Gift of Nature, Imp/Tree Form, Master Shapeshifter +flat healing or +% healing done on all healing spells
2. Tranquil Spirit, Mana Cost -10%
3. Living Seed 30% of Direct Crits Heal Goes to next incoming hit.
4. Nature's Grace Pretty much discussed for -0.5s cast time upon crits
5. Natural Perfection: Spell Crits +3%
6. Nature's Majesty: Nourish Crits + 4%

Mana Cost after all talents:
18% * 0.9 = 16.2%
Heal (2035 + 0.4286 * Heal) * 1.2(assume HoT on)
Given same base crits rate 50% as regrowth, nourish has 54% crits rate
DH * 0.46 + DH * 0.54 * 1.5 * 1.3(LS) = 1.513 * DH = (2035 + 0.4286 * Heal) * 1.2 * 1.513 = 3694.746 + 0.77816616 * Heal

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Conclusion:
For life-saving spam usage, Nourish is still significantly lower than Regrowth for HPS.
HPM wise:
DH part
Regrowth 5531.8 + Healing * 0.8424 for 21.112% base mana
262.02 + 0.0399 * Healing for every 1% of base mana
Nourish 3694.746 + 0.77816616 * Heal for 16.2%
228.07 + 0.0480 * Healing for every 1% of base mana
When your total +Healing = 4191.36, Nourish is better than DH part of Regrowth, around 2221.062 spell power. Although it is not hard to reach, however, consider the HoT part of Regrowth. If you use your gcd to cast some rejuvenation, lifebloom, wild growth, regrowth on other players, to allow some ticks, nourish would ever be under the shadow of regrowth.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

After this, it gets fuzzy. Going along with the current trend of itemization, there will be very little gear with our "ideal" stats. Namely, pure Intellect, Spirit, and Spellpower. Stamina will likely appear too, but more health isn't necessarily a bad thing. Most gear will see Int/Spir/SP along with a decent chunk of Haste or Crit.

The problem lies with the innate value of Haste and Crit to a Druid. Because most of our spells are instant, Haste only does so much - once we hit the point at which our Global Cooldown is 1 second, we have no reason to get more Haste. Many Druids are coming close to, or are at this cap in T7 gear. This means that any further Haste affects a very small portion of our spells (Regrowth/Nourish/GCD of Swiftmend), and does little for our actual output.

Crit has been proven to be more effective for a Resto Druid's output - though that too is something close to abysmal. Crit affects Regrowth, Healing Touch, Swiftmend, and Nourish. As stated above, Nourish is simply a bad spell compared to Regrowth (mathematically, it is). Healing Touch and Swiftmend are awesome spells - but Healing Touch is still the biggest direct heal in the game as far as I know, and is rarely cast except in conjunction with Nature's Swiftness. Swiftmend almost always heals for enough to stabilize a player's health, and if it Crits, it's simply overheal on the Pally that was about to FOL them. Swiftmend Crits are certainly pretty to look at, but they're usually unnecessary.

Nature's Grace and Living Seed are generally very good things. H

Wow. I didn't think it would take three posts.

Nature's Grace and Living Seed are generally very good things. However, there's a good chance (in fact, about a 65% chance) that we'll be proccing these buffs off of Regrowth, due to the 50% increased Crit chance we get from talents. Since Regrowth is a better spell than Nourish, Regrowth is the direct heal spell of choice (though certainly not spammable), and from personal experience I've found that Nature's Grace is up almost constantly, making Regrowth a very effective 1.5 second spell.

So, with our HOTs unaffected by Haste and Crit, our direct healing spells (save for Regrowth) situational and rarely cast (even if we cast them more than in BC, we still don't cast them frequently enough to get any real benefit from Crit), and therefore all of the benefits of Crit coming from Glyphed and Talented Regrowth, BOTH Haste and Crit are wasted itemization on caster Leather aimed at Restoration Druids. Due to having some talents that already work with Crit, it makes sense to give Resto Druids some way to scale better with it.

Fixing Nourish won't solve the problem. Itemizing gear specifically for Resto Druids goes against Blizzard's new policy for gear homogenization. Crit Rating is already a more expensive stat on gear, and with the limited opportunities Resto Druids have to scale, that will be a good way to spend an item budget (rather than inflated stats + spellpower). Give us a way to scale with the gear that we're being given.

---

Q u o t e:
-- That said, we do worry if Nourish's niche is too narrow. We'll see. It is getting compared to heals with very good glyphs affecting them.

---

Can't wait for the Druid Glyph and/or Regrowth nerf coming GC. Please keep the bad news rollin I am lovin it.

We don't enjoy Nourish, we don't need Nourish, nerf everything and we still won't use nourish. Why do you like this spell so much? You could delete it and no one would even shrug.



Besides that I love resto healing right now. I haven't seen any ridiculous WG spam that apparently the "testers" having cleared all content. Oh well

Pft crit & haste, we druids need not these silly stats, gimme a frayed robe and a kobold shovel and the heals are on. This new style of gear is just to give other people a chance to think "maybe we wont have to reroll afterall" hahaha

---

Q u o t e:
Pft crit & haste, we druids need not these silly stats, gimme a frayed robe and a kobold shovel and the heals are on. This new style of gear is just to give other people a chance to think "maybe we wont have to reroll afterall" hahaha

---

I cannot tell you how excited I was when I ran Oculus and Malygos' Favor dropped for me and I won it. No haste, no crit, just stam/int/spi/spellpower. The way it should be for a druid. I hate when they sacrifice spellpower or spi for stuff like haste/crit. Hell, I've seen better things with +hit on it for a resto than some of the stuff AIMED at resto druids.

---

Q u o t e:
QQ about PVP for lvl 80 druids on a lvl 70 rouge

---

Um, really? Feral charge not being in range of you,make you suck? The idea that you can't stun lock people makes you bad at healing in PVP? A 51 talent for shaman, makes them all that much better..Cause you know the class with one hot is way at LOS healing than the class HOT queens? I mean, your cat forms break snares. You have a snare, and a banish nether of them are on CD. If you are rerolling from druid to shaman to PVP heal due the changes you have said, then well by all means, I hope you like being stunlocked, rooted, not being able to LOS, and seeing your CC on CD.

Gt- way to completely ignore the 4 piece T-7 bonus on regrowth.

---

Q u o t e:

-- That said, we do worry if Nourish's niche is too narrow. We'll see. It is getting compared to heals with very good glyphs affecting them.

---

Nourish has a Narrow niche which is fine, druids have alot of heals, and I find myself often thinking, "This would be a good time to cast nourish, this is why they gave it to me" and then I remember that I took it off of my bars to keep myself from casting it. Nourish's problems do not come from it's niche, or from *cough* heal[b]S[/b] *cough* with 'very good glyphs' affecting them. Don't get me wrong, I have some nice glyphs, but I dont know of any that are being compared to Nourish besides the regrowth one, and I dont know how it could be said that any others (that affect a healing spell) besides Regrowth and Swiftmend are even useful, much less "Very Good".

The problem (in my eyes) is that you are too hesitant to give us a good/usefull healing spell, I have my own ideas as to you reasons for this but I wont bring them up as it doesnt matter. The point is that we have a spell now, that In the typical resto build, gains benifit from 1-3 of our talents tops. Nourish already is hindered by not gaining benifit from one of our most core healing abilities (tree form) what we need to see is it tied in with some other talents.

For one, the mana cost is restrictive. Nourish costs me a little over twice as much mana to cast than one of our guilds Holy Paladins to cast Flash of Light. Nourish heals for about 200~ with comparable gear non crit, which is pretty sad even if it stopped there, but then we add in how much more crit a holy pali gets from talents, how much more benifit they get from critting their heals, and the fact that their flash can heal 2 people with beacon up and you can see my point. (I could compare it to priests and shamans flash equivilent spells, against which it also measures up poorly in performance both at the base level and in how much benifit it gets from their respective healing tree's talents, but I will just continue on with my suggestion)

For starters, I would put Nourish on moonglow. 9% mana reduction would help it a bit, certainly it would be cast more by me. Comparing the spell to regrowth only happens because nourish costs only ~40 mana less, but in the end can heal for ~8500 less under ideal circumstances. Reducing the mana cost will bring more thought into mana conserving in situations where the HoT portion will be wasted, and the initial heal will most likely overheal a fair amount.

Once it is on moonglow, I would still put it on a couple other talents, to give it a fair chance, there are several that make sense to me as possibilities. Adding it to one (or more reduced levels) of these talents would bring up to a more useful level.

Empowered Touch - stick it on for 10-20% bonus from spell healing

Imp Regrowth - tie it in for 5-25% bonus crit chance

Replenish - (this talent is terrible IMO and should be reworked completely) I would love to see Regrowth and Rejuv HoT ticks have a low % chance (1,3,5%) to give a stacking buff that stacks to reduce the mana cost and/or cast time of our next non-HoT spell (i.e. Nourish or Healing Touch) 5stacks for a 50% mana nourish or HT, or maybe -1.5 second cast at 5 stacks, maybe -20% mana and -1 second? Anways, mechanics like this have shown up in other classes trees, healing or otherwise, and It would certainly be a fun way to make some of our healing arsenal more usable (thank you by the way for giving us a whole arsenal)

---

Q u o t e:
Gt- way to completely ignore the 4 piece T-7 bonus on regrowth.

---

Ah, true. That math was done before the T7 bonuses were known, iirc. I'll update it/dig up new math momentarily.

It still holds true for healing anyone without a HOT on them, however.

---

Q u o t e:


Ah, true. That math was done before the T7 bonuses were known, iirc. I'll update it/dig up new math momentarily.

It still holds true for healing anyone without a HOT on them, however.

---

the t7 4 piece bonus is for nourish.... not regrowth


http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40465 - proof

---

Q u o t e:
We don't enjoy Nourish, we don't need Nourish, nerf everything and we still won't use nourish. Why do you like this spell so much? You could delete it and no one would even shrug.

---

This.

Honestly, I was very underwhelmed with our shiny new level 80 ability. Warlocks got a teleport. Shamans get a polymorph. I get a watered down flash heal. I think I've maybe cast this spell a whole 6 times.

Furthermore, why is our level 80 ability something that only one tree (resto) would use? Honestly as balance or feral I don't want to cast rejuv and then nourish in a PVP situation. I just want to cast one heal when I need to and then be done with it. Glyphed or not, regrowth is still preferable as those specs.

I understand a lot of PVE healing druids are happy with the way things are going, but as a PVP healer I honestly have hated the changes they've made to resto. I know resto did need a few nerfs in that area, but right now I kinda see this going on:

"We want you to use regrowth more, so we're going to nerf lifebloom"

and soon:

"We want you to use nourish more, so we're going to nerf regrowth"

IMO just get rid of nourish and give us something a little more original in its place.

---

Q u o t e:
I have to admit that after my reference to Nourish yesterday I was contacted by several very good raiding druids who told me I was out of my mind and that's it's a really good spell. When I asked them why so many druids don't like it, their response was that it's Flash Heal, and they want it to be something else.

So there you go. When I have healed as Resto, I didn't use Nourish much, but I should give it another look.

This is antecdotal data, and it's just as easy for anyone to say that they talked to a druid who said they can heal everything with Rejuv so Rejuv is OP. That is why we tend to be persuaded more by numbers (and even more by in-game numbers), but I do place a lot of value on the opinions of skilled players too.

On the topic of number of stats, as I said, you can play that card both ways. If you only need say spellpower, then it's relatively easy to just stack spellpower (warlocks were in this situation in much of BC). If you need lots of stats, it can sometimes be hard to fit the jigsaw puzzle to get them all (Prot warriors were in this situation in much of BC). As I said, there are advantages and disadvantages to both. We disagree that classes or specs who need fewer stats are at a competitive disadvantage or we would stop designing classes that way.

I agree with a couple of posts in this thread that players tend to look at all the loot tables in the game, imagine that they have all of that loot, and then compare themselves to other players of equal gear. The reality is that very few players are ever in that situation of being unable to upgrade, and to be honest, the game starts to be a lot less fun when you do reach that point. The potential to improve your character is one of strongest motivators to keep playing WoW.

There was an orange bow and orange blades in BC. Did that mean that hunters and rogues lacking those weapons were uncompetitive? Not really. Did that mean the trend was to keep dropping better and better hunter and rogue gear compared to other characters? Not really. It is a useful tool to imagine gear that is several tiers higher than current itemization and estimate what characters will look like then -- we use it ourself. But remember that gear is not real gear. If resto druids fall behind when everyone has 10,000 spellpower, then we're not really going to lose sleep over it, because the game will have changed so much by the time that gear becomes reality. If they fall behind when everyone has 3000 spellpower, then maybe it's a problem (though we don't think it is the case that they do).

---

The problem is that after reaching a decent amount of regen, and a 1 second gcd, the place where stat points are most wanted is spell power. Spell power scales arithmetically, unlike haste, and has a far lower impact than regen does. So if all classes are balanced now (or at least if druids are not OP now), then they will certainly fall behind in the future. The best thing to do in this case isn't entirely clear, but certainly waiting for it to happen before fixing it probably isn't the best solution.

---

Q u o t e:
There was an orange bow and orange blades in BC. Did that mean that hunters and rogues lacking those weapons were uncompetitive? Not really. Did that mean the trend was to keep dropping better and better hunter and rogue gear compared to other characters? Not really. It is a useful tool to imagine gear that is several tiers higher than current itemization and estimate what characters will look like then -- we use it ourself. But remember that gear is not real gear. If resto druids fall behind when everyone has 10,000 spellpower, then we're not really going to lose sleep over it, because the game will have changed so much by the time that gear becomes reality. If they fall behind when everyone has 3000 spellpower, then maybe it's a problem (though we don't think it is the case that they do).

---

If you're talking about dual-glaives, they were pretty gamebreaking for arena.

---

Q u o t e:
it seems like when they release an exp it takes them a year to get it so its somewhat balanced , thats how it was with bc for druids imo, maybe even more then a year , what i dont understant is before 3.0 druids that i played with were happy with the way healing was, granted LB was op in pvp but u cant change stuff for pvp, pvp is like a bonus the real game is the pve aspect , before changing talents and spells for pvp u should just make a new pvp only version of wow for them lol

if wild growth really is OP in the GD's mind (which in my mind its not) why not just trash it and give us something different because in my honest opinion making it have a cooldown and or heal less target makes it a pretty lame final resto talent , most resto druids would prolly spec out of it tbh and would spec out of the gotm talent as well (6 useless talent points ) so imo it would be more worthwhile to have somthing different in those 2 slots, even if u change lifebloom to heal for more and cost less mana over those 2 talent slots

---

Be glad your 51st talent point is not a self cyclone (aka dispersion)

---

Q u o t e:
I have to admit that after my reference to Nourish yesterday I was contacted by several very good raiding druids who told me I was out of my mind and that's it's a really good spell. When I asked them why so many druids don't like it, their response was that it's Flash Heal, and they want it to be something else.

---

From a mathmatical standpoint, Nourish simply is not a good spell, I have no idea what the druids who told you it was were thinking. I imagine they use it because they have it, and it works. But if they actually took the time to investigate it, Regrowth is simply better in a raid environment, I say better, in that Regrowth is better as a 'flash' heal than nourish, not even taking into account the HoT. I used to cast Nourish, because I had it, ad because in the back of my mind i thought, 'Regrowth HoT with 20 seconds left on that target, it would be a waste to cast regrowth again" I had to heal in a manner that on the surface is counterintuitive, but actually better. I REALLY wanted a flash heal, and I wanted it to be worth using. The fact is that it simply is not worth casting, and people who cast it are most likely in the same boat I was, which is healing inneficiently. Granted, the difference is minor, but it just strengthens my point TBH that there is so much confusion with Nourish and Regrowth, that Nourish has a small niche and was given as our lvl 80 ability, and a spell with a different niche, is better at doing Nourishes job, than nourish is itself.

---

Q u o t e:
For one, the mana cost is restrictive. Nourish costs me a little over twice as much mana to cast than one of our guilds Holy Paladins to cast Flash of Light. Nourish heals for about 200~ with comparable gear non crit, which is pretty sad even if it stopped there, but then we add in how much more crit a holy pali gets from talents, how much more benifit they get from critting their heals, and the fact that their flash can heal 2 people with beacon up and you can see my point.

---

You need to stop comparing druids to other healing classes in this way.

Paladin spells have lower mana cost for a reason. Take a look at raid-buffed druid mana regen, and compare it to paladins' raid-buffed mana regen.


If paladin healing spells were as expensive as druid healing spells, paladins would have no sustainability. They have fat mana pools and crit-based regen instead of high mp5.

regrowth and nourish are fighting for the same role. if nourish is the best spell in a particular situation then a paladin should be in that role not a druid.

if we talking druids being competitive in in casual raiding and being able to do an ok job then nourish is probably fine but if we are talking about those hardcore guilds that are fighting for server firsts then they are not going to 'settle' for a druid's nourish when they could have a FoL, we just won't be assigned to tasks that require it.

as people have been saying, almost universally regrowth is a better choice and it fits better/makes more sense in the healing roles that druids are commonly in.

---

Q u o t e:



For starters, I would put Nourish on moonglow. 9% mana reduction would help it a bit, certainly it would be cast more by me. Comparing the spell to regrowth only happens because nourish costs only ~40 mana less, but in the end can heal for ~8500 less under ideal circumstances. Reducing the mana cost will bring more thought into mana conserving in situations where the HoT portion will be wasted, and the initial heal will most likely overheal a fair amount.

Empowered Touch - stick it on for 10-20% bonus from spell healing

Imp Regrowth - tie it in for 5-25% bonus crit chance

Replenish - (this talent is terrible IMO and should be reworked completely) I would love to see Regrowth and Rejuv HoT ticks have a low % chance (1,3,5%) to give a stacking buff that stacks to reduce the mana cost and/or cast time of our next non-HoT spell (i.e. Nourish or Healing Touch) 5stacks for a 50% mana nourish or HT, or maybe -1.5 second cast at 5 stacks, maybe -20% mana and -1 second? Anways, mechanics like this have shown up in other classes trees, healing or otherwise, and It would certainly be a fun way to make some of our healing arsenal more usable (thank you by the way for giving us a whole arsenal)

---

Quoted for truth.
I'd love to see Nourish benefit from more talents in the Resto tree. I've found the spell to be useful, and I cringe when I see people say "druid are a HOT-based class" because while we're stronger in HOT'ing than anybody else, we do have a PLETHORA of abilities from which to choose, NOURISH being one of them.