Dunno if it should go here but I'll stick it here anyway

I've seen it mentioned several places that the devs are wanting to revise the dispel system in general. From what I've gathered it seems as though they are relatively satisfied with defensive dispelling (dots and CC) but are looking to revamp offensive dispelling.

What I then propose is a classification on buffs as either a major or minor buff.

Major buffs would include spells such as

Mage armor
Ice Block
Fel armor
Demon Armor
Soul Link (debatable if it should be a magic effect again)
Inner Fire
Power Word: shield (per a talent in deep disc otherwise minor)
Divine Shield
Earth Shield
Hand of Protection (debatable)

Minor Buffs would be the remaining ones such as
Arcane Intellect
Power Word Fortitude
Prayer of Spirit
Thorns
Paladin Blessings
Mark of the wild
Detect Invisibility
Renew
Prayer of Mending
Rejuvenation
Regrowth (heal over time portion)
Lifebloom
Riptide (heal over time portion)
Hand of Freedom
Hand of Sacrifice

With the buffs classified as major or minor then most abilities that can dispel would only be able to remove minor buffs except for the priest ability mass dispel, and a similar spell given to shamans. Mass dispel and the shaman equivalent will need to cost a rather hefty chunk of mana to use and therefore not be able to cast excessively putting a steep price for the debilitating effects that dispelling the major buffs causes.

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Q u o t e:
We have also talked about systems of dispel priority, whether every dispel uses the same number of charges, whether you should be able to protect buffs with other buffs, whether dispel chance should improve with each failure, or if you should be able to dispel buffs like Fort at all.

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I know this is the healer forum, but please remember that defensive dispels are also more ok for some classes than others. A shadow priest who does 50% his damage from two magic dots is in much more need of some defensive dispel protection than a mage who is polymorphing or frost novaing his opponents.

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Q u o t e:
Consumable buffs shouldn't be dispellable. Just throwing that out there. (e.g. noggenfogger)

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Quick boot to the stomach should dispel it IMHO.

I'm hoping a Dispel system can be implemented before Season 1 begins in WoTLK to get Priests more competitive. Buffs like fort, inner fire, pws, etc. shouldn't be dispellable but HOTs and debuffs should be IMHO.

/agree to nogenfogger

I dont know how many hunters stack that dam viper poison/silencing shot/ then also hav a scorpion/snake trap down.....

I see that and just sit down....gg

adding priority would b awesome! i fully support that idea!

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Q u o t e:
We have also talked about systems of dispel priority, whether every dispel uses the same number of charges, whether you should be able to protect buffs with other buffs, whether dispel chance should improve with each failure, or if you should be able to dispel buffs like Fort at all.

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Just a random thought, but what about adding a self cast only dispel resistance into talents that are related to buffs... for example: "Improved Mark of the Wild: Increases the effects of Mark of the Wild by 20/40% and decreases the chance that it will be dispelled from the druid by 50/100%."

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Q u o t e:
Just a random thought, but what about adding a self cast only dispel resistance into talents that are related to buffs... for example: "Improved Mark of the Wild: Increases the effects of Mark of the Wild by 20/40% and increases the chance that it will be dispelled from the druid by 50/100%."

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This would be cool, but it should certainly only happen if there's also prioritization or something similar. Defending your hots by wasting dispel charges on an undispelable motw is silly.

Anything that makes Innervate harder to dispel is a good thing.

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Q u o t e:


This would be cool, but it should certainly only happen if there's also prioritization or something similar. Defending your hots by wasting dispel charges on an undispelable motw is silly.

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Of course spells that are immune to dispels would have to not use up a dispel "attempt". I'm pretty sure this already exists in game since it's possible to make something undispellable via talents (or at least you used to be able to with ret paladin seals I think).

I have long felt that dispelling actual buffs like arcane int, fort, blessings, motw, etc etc made sense, and belong in the game.

On the other hand, dispelling class mechanics that are implemented as buffs feels wrong. I'm not just talking about stuff that is currently dispellable like omen of clarity procs, nature's swiftness, presence of mind and untalented paladin seals. In this very same category I place those class mechanics that are already undispellable, like shapeshift forms, bloodrage and even stealth. Yes I know some are not considered spells, but really that's a fine line to go down. A recoloured and relabeled spell-casting resource is still a spell-casting resource, and so the things you cast from it are still spells. :P

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Q u o t e:
We have also talked about systems of dispel priority, whether every dispel uses the same number of charges, whether you should be able to protect buffs with other buffs, whether dispel chance should improve with each failure, or if you should be able to dispel buffs like Fort at all.

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As mage, stealing Fort is one of our tricks.

Stealing all pally buffs, then using frost Nova to steal the Hand of Freedom is another great tactics.

Just telling few here to get you in touch that you may forget a great aspect of this mechanic.

As this is very powerful the random is fine.
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Something I was doing with my priest was to use a order to buff so big buffs will be dispelled last.

I've seen this same tactics used many times too.
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Will it be a good idea to be able to select the buff we want?
- That could be interesting to boost some class, be in general: no

Will it be ok to make more buff no-dispallable?
- Sure, but again, many talents can do the same

Maybe make the big buffs dispelled last
- Sounds fair, most of the time that's was were doing in arena anyway.
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What's your opinion?

Make it easier for me to dispel things on me, and harder for my enemies to dispel my things

thanks

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Q u o t e:
Make it easier for me to dispel things on me, and harder for my enemies to dispel my things

thanks

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I find your ideas interesting and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

I think a better Idea would be, that for every current class that has some kind of buff, make at least one of their buffs non-dispellable, with this Minor/ Major buff idea. Making Major buffs undispellable would help the classes that can't dispell themselves.

It only makes sense that, if you can't dispell someone else's major buffs, why should they be able to dispell your own major buffs? it's really not fair.

Now as to what should be major and or Minor? Well I'm just talking about Magic buffs, obviously right now the only physical buffs that can be dispelled right now is enraged.


I think buffs that provide a personal benefit shouldn't be dispellable (for sure). I also think every class that has buffs should get at least one that can't be dispelled.

Honestly, I hate it when my Gift of the Wild (Reangent) is dispelled by the next priest or shaman, and I can't personally dispell any of their buffs.

So I believe We all deserve at least 1 buff to be undispellable.

As for me.. Mark of The Wild probable helps more then thorns (both are useful but Thorns doesn't help against casters, where as MotW helps against both class types).

My idea after being genuinly frustrated with the dispel mechanics since arena season 1 was a simple weighted system. Every effect that has a removal mechanic has set of points.


Examples..

Dispel Magic (priest):
Attempts to dispel magical effects on an enemy or ally - weight 6.

Winter's Chill (mage):
Applies a debuff on the target increasing the critical strike chance of spells made against that target by 2%, stacks 5 times - weight 1.

Polymorph (mage):
Turns dude into a sheep - weight 3.

Target has 4 applications of winter's chill on him, and gets polymorphed. Priest casts dispel on the target, removes polymorph (this is also a basic priority system, higher weight effects get removed first) and 3 stacks of winter's chill.

Then you can have glyphs, pvp talents, etc. make these mechanics stronger instead of "making it 30% harder to remove" or something.

I haven't really fleshed it out, but something along those lines.

As a Shammy I was dissapointed when you went through and made all the personal armor's undispellable. I understood the need, but I didn't like the basic concept. Dispell, to me, is a counter to a buff. But by adding immunity I was no longer reacting to buffs as I saw them. I was just clearing off the basic stat increasing buffs at the begining of the fight. It was like a job you did before you actually started. You get in range, press purge three times, then start fighting. And at no point durring the fighting was there any need to then push the Purge button in reaction to something. This is not completly true, but it feels like we are going that direction.

I would much rather prefer the long term buffs such as Fotitude and Inteligence and Kings be no longer purgeable, at all. When you bring a Priest to your 2v2 you get an extra 3% health that fight, it's just a benefit of that class, part of the choice you make when creating an arena team. You bring an Enhancement Shaman your melle classes do a bit more damage from Unleashed Rage. Etc. I understand some of the Clothy Armors need to be in there as well.


But I want to see more of the short term, long cool down buffs be counterable by a dispell, at a cost..

Now many of the short term buffs are supposed to be safe havens. With Purge being a 30 yard instance cast no cooldown, Arcane Shot being 40 yard instant cast with damage, etc... Dispells are simply to easly accessible ATM. You can't make long cool down abilities dispellable when dispells are so easy to cast. I think the answer though is not to make them impossible to remove but to add consiquences for doing so. It would be a lot of hard design work but could add another fasinating layer to PvP, where you can counter almost any long cooldown short term buff, but it's a big decision to do so because the consiquenses could be as detrimental as the benefits, all depending on the situation. It certainly added something to my decision process when fighting a Druid, and I personally liked having to think a little.

The dispelling in this game has really gone overboard and is now a frustrating fruitless endeavor to cast buffs that make a difference. When an hour/30 minute buff can be taken off in a second, I have a problem with the thinking behind the game's principles. For the energy/magic that goes into some buffs, they should be strong enough to withstand some measure of force instead of this tissue paper aspect that they currently exhibit. I would be more forgiving if short term buffs were fragile and could be dispelled more easily, but they too should be given significant resistance to dispel mechanics considering the cost, time and effort to cast them. Comparing the effort to gather and pay for the materials of some valuable potions, to then have them go down in an instant without getting their value returned is discouraging.

How about:

Long term buff be of medium power/strength.
Short term buffs be very powerful.

Then:

Make long term buffs un-dispellable. (Fort, AI, etc.)
and make short term buffs be subject to being dispelled.
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Not sure where I'd put Inner Fire cause I hate the whole concept of it being so straight-jacketed, hamstrung, limited, and just wimpified to uselessness so easily. I HATE THE CHARGES SO MUCH.

Sorry, it's a "thorn-in-my-side" spell and why I don't play the priest much.

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One interesting idea I've had for a long time:

Make offensive dispels (or at least one of them) drain "resource" (mana, energy, rage, runepower/runes) from the player for every non-heal buff it has, in addition to having a small chance of dispelling a healing buff.

Let's first define "resources" classes have:

Refilling resource: energy, focus and runes. These are constantly being refiled (or cooled-down).

Regenerating resource: rage, runic power, and combo points. These are gained from attacking with abilities.

Draining resource: mana. The classes start with an abundance of these, and drain this resource with fairly passive regeneration of it (requires being passive in some way to regen it - whether it's five-second-rule, running and drinking, channeling an interruptible regen, etc).

Each resource has a relative power to each other, and I'd like to discuss them with only percentages, and a weight associated with each type of resource (and perhaps even different weights for individual resources too). Let's call this conversion ratio "resource power ratio". And let's call the converted resource power, "resource percentage power" - RPP.

For example, energy and runes are cheap as they both fill to full in 10 seconds. Combo points are more expensive, and it perhaps has a similar resource power ratio as rage or runic power. Mana will weigh heavier, as it's difficult to get back once drained. So, for pure example's sake, let's call the ratio for refilling resources 2, regenerative resources 3, and draining resources 4. This means a 20% base mana spell would have the same RPP as a 30 rage move, or a 40 energy strike, in this case "80".

Now, let's make a dispel spell drain an amount of RPP equal to 50% of the RPP cost for all non-healing buffs. There also ought to be a minimum of 15 RPP and maximum of, say, 150 RPP. (These numbers can be twisted to balance later.)

Examples:
A dispel on Warrior with no buffs: drains the minimum 15 RPP or 5 rage (resource power ratio of 3).
A magic-dispel on Warrior with Fortitude (27% base mana = 108 RPP) and Blessing of Might (5% of base mana = 20 RPP): 108 + 20 = 128 RPP. 50% of that is 64 RPP, and converting back to rage (ratio of 3) it becomes a 21-rage drain.

And we can make a different dispel spell drain 35% of the RPP cost of all non-healing buffs, but also removes a healing buff (HOT).

Yet another different dispel spell could drain 20% of the RPP cost of all non-healing buffs, and cause damage equaling the RPP.

And so on.

Hmm. I think I'll steal from myself and put that in my own game to be developed hehe. =p


Edit: The actual drain could also be further modified by the cooldown and duration of buffs, for further balancing purposes. Add a "up to" clause in the tool tip. ;)

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Q u o t e:
My idea after being genuinly frustrated with the dispel mechanics since arena season 1 was a simple weighted system. Every effect that has a removal mechanic has set of points.


Examples..

Dispel Magic (priest):
Attempts to dispel magical effects on an enemy or ally - weight 6.

Winter's Chill (mage):
Applies a debuff on the target increasing the critical strike chance of spells made against that target by 2%, stacks 5 times - weight 1.

Polymorph (mage):
Turns dude into a sheep - weight 3.

Target has 4 applications of winter's chill on him, and gets polymorphed. Priest casts dispel on the target, removes polymorph (this is also a basic priority system, higher weight effects get removed first) and 3 stacks of winter's chill.

Then you can have glyphs, pvp talents, etc. make these mechanics stronger instead of "making it 30% harder to remove" or something.

I haven't really fleshed it out, but something along those lines.

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I've discussed this system with friends before, and I really do like this system as well. Basically giving hit-points and priority to buffs to be dispelled. This would probably be less jarring than my idea, which is a complete re-write of the offensive dispel mechanism, rather than an overhaul.