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Q u o t e:
But more importantly, GC obviously doesn't care for it either. If you want to see change, make a thread and talk about what's wrong with shamans, right now and at 80, not what went wrong in the past.

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Nothing "went wrong" with Shamans in 3.0, in the literal sense. For that to happen, there would have had to be some actual changes. Therein lies the problem -- Shamans got very little in 3.0, and our same old problems dating way back to 2.0 and beyond are still there.

The fact that the other classes jumped so far ahead in 3.0 only compounds the problem. If you put a 3.0 Shaman and a 2.4 [insert other class] in Arena, then we would be pretty balanced.

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Q u o t e:
I understand it can be cathartic to vent about what happened to your spec or class in the past, or how you feel let down or how you think we broke promises, etc. etc.

But really, those kinds of comments don't really do much to help us address any current class design issues. I'm personally pretty much only interested in the current state of the game. We can learn from the past of course, particularly for systems or spells that did or didn't work in WoW or BC. We can figure out why Holy paladins or mages weren't competitive in Sunwell. We can consider why shamans and hunters weren't an Arena powerhouse. But we'll get a lot more out of it if we stick to those kinds of discussions -- the objective numbers, not the subective part about how you feel you've been treated.

Current shaman issues, cool.
Remember, remember the Fifth of November stuff I'm skipping over.

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What you sir fail t recognize is the the what happened to our spec and class in the past is stil the same currently and still looks the same in the future. I understand you don't want to pave a road for classes to be lock into a set build. But as shaman not only can we see the tunnel ahead, we see the road dead ending.

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Q u o t e:

/sigh

I'm asking if the feedback in the myriad threads detailing Shaman issues has made it to the devs.

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Here's the problem... there is lots of previous feedback... things have been said, and amazingly, things have been done.

While we should not ignore the past (especially the lack of scaling that Elemental Shaman faced, or the competition for gear Enhancement shaman had to deal with) we need to move forward.

The problem with the Shaman boards is we have too many facets... 3 different specs, each with a different problem in PvP and PvE.

Enhancement shaman are fine for PvE (as far as i'm concerned), Resto Shaman and Elemental Shaman are decent in PvP (could use some buffs, and maybe some dispell resistance or a way to break focus fire...)

Enhancement Shaman face a myriad of problems in PvP. They face all the difficulties of being a melee class, but haven't been given enough abilities to counteract them. No real closing measure, no anti-CC abilities... They have the damage, if they can keep the target in front of them.

Elemental Shaman face lackluster DPS in a raid setting, and don't bring enough to make up for it. 2 Shaman are probably more than enough on a raid now, and Resto and Enhancement are better raiding builds than Elemental. Elemental DPS needs to be brought up, or they need to bring a significant group advantage past what they have.

Resto Shaman are probably the most happy out of the three roles. They can be competitive in Arenas, outside the 2500 bracket especially, and they have a role in 5 mans and raids. Their raiding utility needs to be improved, so that they don't depend soley on chain heal. Healing as a Shaman is basically the same for any encounter... and anything where AOE damage isn't a factor, a different class is probably a better choice. They could use a more in depth healing rotation... anything where chain heal isn't the 90% spell would be nice.

Shaman are still fun to play, but everyone wants something different from them. I'm not sure managing the expectations for all 6 needs will ever be possible. Personally, I'd settle for a strong PvE presence with at least one spec that is good/great for PvP.

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Q u o t e:
But we'll get a lot more out of it if we stick to those kinds of discussions -- the objective numbers, not the subective part about how you feel you've been treated.

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Except the way shaman got treated is an objective fact. You screwed us. How I feel about that screwing is the subjective part. Most of us don't feel too good about it but even if we liked it that wouldn't change the fact that it was a screwin'

You shouldn't let your rhetorical reach exceed your logical grasp.

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Q u o t e:
I know you want specifics, and there's plenty of other threads giving that information, but this thread started out on a more historical, philosophical level (class balancing philosophy that is) and that's why it's going int hat direction. If you want numbers and specifics to discuss, stop by any one of of the many threads about Shaman Theorycrafting and "General questions Shamans want answered" that are all over this forum.

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TBH I thought the thread was pretty much worthless from the start so there you go. :X

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Q u o t e:
TBH I thought the thread was pretty much worthless from the start so there you go. :X

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Apparently not, since we're having some good discussion here, despite your crapping all over it :-P

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Q u o t e:
TBH I thought the thread was pretty much worthless from the start so there you go. :X

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I agree, and wouldn't you know it... it got a blue response. Go figure.

Come on, you have to see the humor in that considering all that we've been saying all along regarding blues and Shaman.

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Q u o t e:

Nothing "went wrong" with Shamans in 3.0, in the literal sense. For that to happen, there would have had to be some actual changes. Therein lies the problem -- Shamans got very little in 3.0, and our same old problems dating way back to 2.0 and beyond are still there.

The fact that the other classes jumped so far ahead in 3.0 only compounds the problem. If you put a 3.0 Shaman and a 2.4 [insert other class] in Arena, then we would be pretty balanced.

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That is, frankly, a lie. I know WotLK won't be out for a little longer but this isn't like tBC, where you got no new buttons besides bloodlust. You'll be working flameshock and Lavaburst into your elemental rotations, Lava Lash and Lightning Bolt into Enhancement, and Healing Wave will be used situationally instead of using Chain Heal 100% of the time. And then you've also got new buttons in Hex, Thunderstorm, Feral Spirits and their random crap, and Riptide. Most of those are definitely more pvp oriented so if that's not your thing, sorry. But hey it's not like shamans were exactly terrible in pve (well, elemental arguably was).

Now, whether the changes made will allow shamans to compete in pvp, that is obviously a different ballgame. But don't tell me absolutely nothing has changed.

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Q u o t e:

I agree, and wouldn't you know it... it got a blue response. Go figure.

Come on, you have to see the humor in that considering all that we've been saying all along regarding blues and Shaman.

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GC responds to stuff constantly that I personally think is beneath him. He just does crowd control. It's fairly easy to do I guess, but I wish he'd just ignore QQ threads.

Thank you GC.

Edit to add: I can't speak for the others, but any bitterness in my posts is borne out of frustration and my own hot-headed temperament, not any resentment towards you. I think I've seen more feedback from you than any other Blue, and for that I thank you.

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Q u o t e:

/sigh

I'm asking if the feedback in the myriad threads detailing Shaman issues has made it to the devs.

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There's been feedback and communication between the shaman community and the devs all over the beta forums for the past couple months. You could argue other people get more attention but I've read plenty of responses from GC saying they acknowledge elemental issues and are trying to come up with ways to fix them. I agree things haven't always been great for the shaman community, but they, along with the entire WoW community has been moving in a somewhat more positive direction, at least in my opinion.

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Q u o t e:
Uh, I’m not really sure what your statements are trying to accomplish here. You want an apology? I’m sorry shamans and hunters (and whoever else) weren’t an Arena powerhouse. Of course it was our fault. We design the game. This sounds a little mean, but if what we need to do is set up a “PAST INJUSTICES” thread, we can do that. I won’t be personally reading it much though.

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The point was that the two classes you quotes as "not being Arena powerhouses" have been dead last for 4 seasons. That's 4 seasons out of a total of the 4 seasons that Arena has been effect. And people have started to think you (Blizzard, not your personally) just don't care about the fact.

Yeah, I know, there are fundamental issues with both Hunters and Shaman when it comes to Arena. Yeah, I know it's just one aspect of WoW's end game. But when you refer to the two classes as "not being powerhouses" when both have been dead last for the entire run of Arena, yeah ... that strikes me as funny in that morbid, sarcastic, black humor sort of way.

Thanks for admitting it's not a "L2P" issue though, I appreciate it.

Thanks GC, we *do* appreciate your hard work, I hope you know that, aside from all our bickering and jaded retribution (oops, I said a naughty word, didn't I?).

Getting back to the heart of the matter - is there anything, even just a tidbit, that you can say regarding the totem mechanic and your feelings on how it works and what your goals were for it in the release of the expansion and if you have any future goals you've discussed with your team?

Many thanks.

1. theres gotta be more reason to drop totems being how they are FAR LESS UNIQUE, i posted in a post earlier with resolve to maybe giving a shaman only/all spec buffer when all 4 totems are down, buffing the shaman similar to druids Master shapeshifter or Elemental 2pc t6.

2. Coefficients / AOES / Haste vs. Rotations and GCDs all are up in the air as mentioned, so I dont need to push that back to topic, been reposted like 3 times between the shaman gathering threads.

3. Shamans lack a hell of a lot of survivability outside of resto, and no spec should be pigeonholed with upcoming changes to make classes viable for PVP, specially when itll come to a point where AS-5 hits and some shamans are chasing pvp weapons for pvp/pve temporary.

4. More solidified responses as a Dev coming into a frustrated classes forums? Is it hard to ask to not write something that has this kind of "Not gonna hold my breath on when it will be fixed" response and that maybe "in a month or so I think i could give a solid answer to that" kind of answer? Shamans want a timeline, not another 4 year waiting list, not that Ive played one that long but i definately see plenty of veterans with the "sick and tired of being sick and tired" on needed changes.

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Q u o t e:


This kind of stuff -- not useful. Right here is where I stopped reading your post and just skipped over to the next one.

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While his wording was harsh there is something to say about how outdated shaman totem and shock mechanics are.

Shocks need to be unlinked somehow, reduce the dmg coeffiecents and keep earth/wind linked(2 interrupts in 6 seconds would be OP) but making us still choose between interrupting and snaring is ridiculous. No other class has to put up with that.

Totems as well need to be removed from the GCD and have their own 1 second CD between dropping so you can't spam them. Shaman are the most bogged down by GCD class out there and the main culprit is totems.

These 2 simple fixes to "broken core shaman mechanics" are the kind of changes people need to see come from blizz.

Ok, I'll tell you what i actually experience.

1) Mitigation - I take sooooooo much damage i can't even attack my opponent to charge up my maelstrom weapon to instant or near instant heal myself to keep my survivability in check. And other people know this man! so what do they do? They all focus on me, lock me down and proceed to put C4 on me and blow me up and go kill some more shamans. Its like walking on eggshells, If i go into the melee battle amongst a big group there's a high chance I'm not walking out. Cause the minute they see me I'm pelted with attacks and kited. The wolves would be nice to help me out in every one of these situations but this type of thing always happens and i can't have them out at all times so its a very situational, "o shyt" break the glass hit the red button type ability for me.

2) Damage - My damage is like, how can I explain it. It's like I'm swinging a pillow at my enemy and they're really just like "dude get the f*ck away can't you see I'm busy". The damage itself is so all over the place, it's like one minute you're hitting decent, the next its small; what I'm saying is the burst is not there.And I'm talking about competent PvP players. It just feels as a shaman you're always in a uphill battle. If you have enough luck and skill you can beat almost any unskilled class but against a player that knows what to do your chances are very, very low. My fix to this would be simply: REMOVE the 3sec internal CD, c'mon GC, you can do it man!

Since I have started playing this game, the every day things i do notice is that one for me being such a awesome support class people tend to not want my support awesomeness. From looking for heroics, It's either "sorry we need a cc" or "pst! are you resto!" to Arena; /2 Enh shaman lf any arena team!...... (no response). It's basically you're a weak low mitigation, dps and nobody wants you for arena teams or dungeons. You can blame some if not a lot of the problem on players underestimating a shaman's worth because they have seen a lot of bad ones or from them not having played with enough shamans to really draw conclusions from.

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Q u o t e:
That is, frankly, a lie. I know WotLK won't be out for a little longer but this isn't like tBC, where you got no new buttons besides bloodlust. You'll be working flameshock and Lavaburst into your elemental rotations, Lava Lash and Lightning Bolt into Enhancement, and Healing Wave will be used situationally instead of using Chain Heal 100% of the time. And then you've also got new buttons in Hex, Thunderstorm, Feral Spirits and their random crap, and Riptide. Most of those are definitely more pvp oriented so if that's not your thing, sorry. But hey it's not like shamans were exactly terrible in pve (well, elemental arguably was).

Now, whether the changes made will allow shamans to compete in pvp, that is obviously a different ballgame. But don't tell me absolutely nothing has changed.

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Im gonna play a little game with you.

Suppose they added a new judgement that was on par with your current ones but about 5% better.
Suppose they nerfed your current judgements by 10% to enforce using the new judgement on its 10 second cooldown.
Suppose you wont be getting that judgement until 75.
Suppose they did that with elemental shaman but they called it flame shock/Lava burst.

Now stop supposing....cause they did.

Hex is a weak CC for a class that has no other alternatives. Context is everything in saying how Hex doesnt fix the problem.
Thunderstorm doesnt do its stated purpose.
Feral spirits do not scale.
Riptide shamans kept it in beta for several patches even if they respecced out of it...but no one noticed.
Lava lash is a good start. Add something for frost brand. Alternatives are good.

Circle of Healing priests will now replace CH shamans. Do the math.

GC our shock mechanics are the same for 4 years. Another (more) instant(s) within elemental is sorely needed to deal with the constant lockout danger the spec faces.

The cluster of defensive totems on Earth doesnt "feel right" to the people having to deal with how bad the cost opportunities are. Could we get some honest discussion on movement of defensive totems to water or even fire please? Likewise a genuine stock totem UI and adressing totem vulnerability and weakness to lame, no skill pet macroes would be great. An open thread about solutions endorsed by you to invite comments and suggestions, GC, would be even better.

Good lord, people. I had to come in after looking just at what GC actually quoted while reading a blue tracker. It's a freaking game, and your nerdrage is blown so out of proportion that you are actually wearing away at the patience of one of the most communicative developers WoW has ever seen. Honestly I thought ret paladins were bad but you guys are probably making them blush. You make nice for one, maybe two sentences, feigning appreciation before you start ranting about how obvious it is that blizzard doesn't care/doesn't play shaman/is incompetent.

Listen, if you are honestly that offended, please just leave the class. Don't tell everyone you're going to, don't tell everyone you're THINKING about it or that you'll be FORCED to do it if X demands are not met, just DO it and realize that the grass is always greener on the other side.

This is my shaman. she is resto. I also leveled enhance. I enjoy the shaman class. Even with the alliance having it, it is an ICONIC horde class. We get totems, chain heal, spirit wolves, chain lightning, shields of various elements. These are high concepts, they create a cohesive, compelling character idea. Further, near the end of BC this compelling concept was also enough to make us mandatory in our myriad specs in raids. Bloodlust, chain heals, totems, and various enhancing effects were guaranteeing us a ton of spots. In pvp, if you want to turn back the dial, look back to the very beginning of WoW, when battlegrounds were in their infancy and represented the pinnacle of pvp achievement, and windfury promised to crush anyone's dreams if the shaman was lucky enough. We have not been mistreated, we have not been neglected, we are merely walkers of a path less traveled. The dedicated walk it with pride.

Thank you, GC. I have a shaman, a warrior, and a priest. For all of these classes, we have been given great things to really take us into the expansion with excitement (warrior most of all) and a sense of wonder. Keep up the good work and ignore these cesspools that pass for forums. Frankly, the people posting her squander your attention on their never ending bitterness, and have proven they're uninterested in what you say. Give them what they REALLY want and just let them fester in their own anger.

My previous post:

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Q u o t e:

Q u o t e:
But as OP said, our mechanics are broken! Our totems, Shock, healing, lots of things have been broken for ever and there's is no sign of change. I know those are hard programming issues, but if you can't fix them, just change them! Or you will still have a lot of complains about it.

I was hoping to see if we could get some of those bugs fixed. I gave up and started another class. It's really a shame to see that everyone is doing the same and Blizzard doesn't seems to respond to it.

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GC answer:

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Q u o t e:

This kind of stuff -- not useful. Right here is where I stopped reading your post and just skipped over to the next one.

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Sorry GC, my intention in my first post wasn't only to talk directly to you. There's many other players here that read this posts. I was just pointing out one of many reason why Shamans are so frustrated.

If you want numbers or comparison to classes and roles, well read below.
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I'll compare Shamans VS mages as I'm now playing a mage for multiple reasons.

1)Lack of utility in party / group
Shaman: Bring buffs, offheal, resurrect, anti-wipe per hour, anti-fear/Sleep and weak CC (only lvl 80).
Best of all is our Haste Buff (Hero/Blood)

Mages: Bring food/drink, fewer buff, awsome AoE and DPS. Teleport.
Can also be an anti-wipe if engineer (using invisibility). Lots of way to control mobs.
Best of all is our strongest CC in the game.

Yes Shamans are jack of all trade. But if I need to decide between a mage and a shaman for DPS. I'll get a mage first and at last a shaman. As the DPS will result in a faster dungeon experience. The shaman will not have to deal with healing very often, Fear and Sleep effect will be avoidable as you stated previous that dungeon wont require a specific class anymore.

2)To vulnerable in PvP
My shaman can't deal with rogues/Paladin in any way. I tried a lot I can't defeat those class if the player as moderate to high skills. Warlock, mages and hunter druid hard very hard to deal with, nearly impossible. Priest are medium to easy.

With my mage, Warriors are joke, Rogue are fair and need high skills. Hunter could be hard but doable, druid are the hardest along with warlock. Paladin, despite there high burst, are also doable. Shamans are laughable.

This is with the fact that we have a lot a trick spells to use and the cooldown are short. A very well played mage can kill two players at a time. Never seen that from a shaman.

Solutions:

Earthbind totem - Yes it's getting closer, let it break impairing effect and maybe CC and we will have a huge upgrade there. Only snares is pathetic. Also, there's nothing in other trees to help.

Stone Claw - Hey, if earthbind and tremor is essential in PVP, why are you giving us this? Is also useless as water walking (wait ww is even better). Need a entire new spell here to share ou HP with our totem or maybe making them invisible to some point.

No anti-stun - I have 2 anti-stun on my mage (blink/ice block). Nothing here, nothing at all. maybe you can get us something. Yes there's something FAR in elemental tree to reduce damage. What we need is a immunity to it or alter the duration. - once again every spec should have a way to do it.

No anti-CC - Same as the stun.

Weak Slowing effect - Frost shock can be dispelled, resisted or event reflected. And we don't have anti-dispel. Earthbind with a cooldown and easy to kill. Maybe having a talent or glyph that doesn't trigger our shock CD if the target avoid it.

Survivability - we have quite few +armor, and magic damage reduction, yet, my mage have almost more survivability with depem magic, mana shield, ice barrier, frost/fire ward and many escape. Maybe add something like a Shield temporary effect like we do to our weapon? Lightning shield should add some magic resist or armor... maybe add another shield to do it? Or s effect on proc/remove (silence, sleep, stun)

I would not come back on totems, you can read the rest of my previous post.

Sorry for the tone of my post. I wanted it to be as short as possible while in the same time make my argument much stronger.