It just sucks to know we're behind like this. Also I think a ton of people believe there is a track record of not fixing stuff like this fast enough. So we hit 80, Eley is lower then moonkin, You acknowledge that and say you'd like to fix it, meanwhile Eley is stuck holding the bag for weeks or months of sub-par performance while you all decide how, or even worse, it may take a rework of *several* things if there are multiple problems, in which case we could be waiting for a *very* long time.
I also understand that this is a better course of action (sadly) as simply throwing us a buff now, and saying "Well, if it's too much, we'll just tone it down" Would make people happy, but I mean, let's be real here, it's obvious what peoples reactions would be when it *was* toned down three months later because it was ahead.


I do appreciate the response, I did feel you were dodging the Eley shaman issue the past few days, I am happy to at least know your stance on it. Do you have any word on the AOE issue? I read in another thread you were considering reducing the cooldown on TS via glyphs (Which is boring). What's up?

I guess all we can hope for is a bit of reassurance. If Eley is low, you'll fix us, right?
... Right?

Thank you for the feedback Ghostcrawler! I hope you can understand the elemental concern, because just with the data that we have available it does not look promising. And until something new comes up the elemental shaman can only trust what they can test, and see.

---

Q u o t e:
We don't think Balance dps is far above Elemental at 80, if in fact it's high at all. Posting numbers from a theorycrafting spreadsheet does not provide solid proof. The only way to detect a trend at all is to generate very large datasets of both specs in a raid setting. Nobody actually has access to those data yet. Until then, pretty much everything is speculation and informed guesses (even on our part).

We do think that there may be a problem where Elemental's dps will eventually drop down because they don't have as many scaling talents as Balance. But this won't occur with gear currently available in the game -- it's more of an eventual risk and we have plenty of time to address it. It's also possible that Balance scales too well. That's why we haven't taken any steps to adjust either spec so far.

If I had to guess, we will redirect some of Elemental's deep talents more towards raw damage than just utility, but that's just a guess at his point and not an official announcement.

---

Just curious GC. If all this goes live as is right now. And it's proven at 80 that elemental is way down on the bottom of the barrel in concern to DPS. How quickly do you guys forsee the hotfix that will need to take place?

---

Q u o t e:
We don't think Balance dps is far above Elemental at 80, if in fact it's high at all. Posting numbers from a theorycrafting spreadsheet does not provide solid proof. The only way to detect a trend at all is to generate very large datasets of both specs in a raid setting. Nobody actually has access to those data yet. Until then, pretty much everything is speculation and informed guesses (even on our part).

We do think that there may be a problem where Elemental's dps will eventually drop down because they don't have as many scaling talents as Balance. But this won't occur with gear currently available in the game -- it's more of an eventual risk and we have plenty of time to address it. It's also possible that Balance scales too well. That's why we haven't taken any steps to adjust either spec so far.

If I had to guess, we will redirect some of Elemental's deep talents more towards raw damage than just utility, but that's just a guess at his point and not an official announcement.

---

Wait, you don't think that Balance's DPS is far above Elemental's, but then you go on to say "Nobody actually has access to those data yet. Until then, pretty much everything is speculation and informed guesses (even on our part).". Maybe I'm taking things out of context here, but this makes it sound like our speculation isn't valid, but that yours is, even though yours is just as arbitrary.

Another concern of mine here is that you're going down a path of least resistance wherein you do not actually address the concerns you admit might be a problem down the road, when you could fix them now. You did this in TBC and Shaman fell behind until you did something. Why must a class/spec suffer because you're too prideful to fully admit wrong?

I'd be careful with "redirecting" them, because that makes it sound like you're going to get rid of the utility, which would hurt PVP elemental Shamans, why can't we have both? In fact GC, did you know that there's a staple line of thinking within the Shaman community where we all believe that there is a sort of "50% rule" that states that for everything good we get in buffs, there's an equal nerf to completely negate it and even it out? There's many examples of this throughout the Shaman balancing process, such as the tweaking of SR when you added the damage reduction and reduced the duration of the effect, lowering the mana return. Pretty sad :(

---

Q u o t e:
And I hate Blizzard buffs moonkins, which are the most hybrid class in the game (they can range-dps, melee-dps, tank, off tank and heal: all 5 roles in the game). Shamans? range-dps, melee-dps and heal.

I LOL AT BLIZZARD

---

We're the most hybrid of all the classes but we have to use forms to reach our max potential in 1 role and it locks us out of our other roles while using that form.

---

Q u o t e:

We're the most hybrid of all the classes but we have to use forms to reach our max potential in 1 role and it locks us out of our other roles while using that form.

---

Boomkins can still throw heals if needed.

Elemental Shamans can still throw heals if needed.

Both are diminished and don't offer even close to as much as their Resto counterparts.

Moonkin are not a hybrid class, we are a specific type of Druid, which is a very versatile class.

I guarantee you that if you fight a Moonkin, and he attempts to kill you in Cat Form (melee DPS), you will roflpwn him.

Bear form? You will roflpwn him a bit more slowly due to increased survivability but next to no dmg.

If he's in caster form it's a free HK w/o barkskin.

In short, sir, you're wrong.

---

Q u o t e:

Boomkins can still throw heals if needed.

Elemental Shamans can still throw heals if needed.

Both are diminished and don't offer even close to as much as their Resto counterparts.

---

Moonkin can throw heals, but it costs us more than 1200 mana/per heal in order to return to our DPS rotation. So unless our heals are magically the most effective EVAR, I'm not buying your argument.

Shaman suffer slightly lower DPS for the same idiot reason that will get Moonkin nerfed: whiney mages QQing that hybrids can deal comparible damage. I don't agree with it, but that's just how it is.

---

Q u o t e:

Boomkins can still throw heals if needed.

Elemental Shamans can still throw heals if needed.

Both are diminished and don't offer even close to as much as their Resto counterparts.

---

A moonkin has to spend extra mana on heals when we shift back into form..... elemental shamans do not have that problem.

---

Q u o t e:
We don't think Balance dps is far above Elemental at 80, if in fact it's high at all. Posting numbers from a theorycrafting spreadsheet does not provide solid proof. The only way to detect a trend at all is to generate very large datasets of both specs in a raid setting. Nobody actually has access to those data yet. Until then, pretty much everything is speculation and informed guesses (even on our part).

We do think that there may be a problem where Elemental's dps will eventually drop down because they don't have as many scaling talents as Balance. But this won't occur with gear currently available in the game -- it's more of an eventual risk and we have plenty of time to address it. It's also possible that Balance scales too well. That's why we haven't taken any steps to adjust either spec so far.

If I had to guess, we will redirect some of Elemental's deep talents more towards raw damage than just utility, but that's just a guess at his point and not an official announcement.

---

GC,

I think there was some err on your part to allow Elemental's "strength" to be placed in the mid 70s, then allow us to run around as chickens with no heads for a month before the release of LK. I know it's only a month, but this is the "showcase" to your new product. It can make or break people's choice to purchase the expansion, or let WoW collect dust on the hard drive.

I know things will get better when we can use our Fire rotation, but I'd critique you slightly and say you should have just given us rank 1 Lava Burst at level 70, thus giving us time to get used to the rotation, and allowing us to still be competitive in the remaining level 70 content until LK. Since it's so close now, it doesn't matter. But both PvP and PvE have been mildly hellish for the past month as Elemental Shaman.

Just perhaps something to keep in mind for the future.

Good day,
-Stormwolf

---

Q u o t e:

Wait, you don't think that Balance's DPS is far above Elemental's, but then you go on to say "Nobody actually has access to those data yet. Until then, pretty much everything is speculation and informed guesses (even on our part).". Maybe I'm taking things out of context here, but this makes it sound like our speculation isn't valid, but that yours is, even though yours is just as arbitrary.

...

---

The way I interpreted Ghostcrawler's post is along the lines of "The way the talents and gear have been designed, things should balance out nicely with the x-pac; however, we will make adjustments if/when the data shows otherwise." I would expect Ghostcrawler to have a better understanding of the game than any of the end users but he was being diplomatic and professional with a response.

---

Q u o t e:

A moonkin has to spend extra mana on heals when we shift back into form..... elemental shamans do not have that problem.

---

There is a DPS tradeoff for Shamans just as well as there is for Balance Druids.

Can we both just agree that Shamans and Druids are both hybrids? I mean, who brings an Elemental Shaman to off heal? Think, please, that's all we ask.

---

Q u o t e:
We don't think Balance dps is far above Elemental at 80, if in fact it's high at all. Posting numbers from a theorycrafting spreadsheet does not provide solid proof. The only way to detect a trend at all is to generate very large datasets of both specs in a raid setting. Nobody actually has access to those data yet. Until then, pretty much everything is speculation and informed guesses (even on our part).

---

Even if our damage is at par with a Balance Druid we fall to the wayside through utility. Boomkins replace almost all of our buff contributions plus 3% hit, 3% haste, 13% damage as well as Innervate and they are the best candidate for combat Rez's (which makes stacking them desireable). All shaman class buffs are provided by other specs of shaman aside from ToW which can be marginally made up for in Flametongue totem from other shaman and the crit aura only means anything without a Ret Paladin, which would be taken for replenish.

---

Q u o t e:
We don't think Balance dps is far above Elemental at 80, if in fact it's high at all. Posting numbers from a theorycrafting spreadsheet does not provide solid proof. The only way to detect a trend at all is to generate very large datasets of both specs in a raid setting. Nobody actually has access to those data yet. Until then, pretty much everything is speculation and informed guesses (even on our part).

We do think that there may be a problem where Elemental's dps will eventually drop down because they don't have as many scaling talents as Balance. But this won't occur with gear currently available in the game -- it's more of an eventual risk and we have plenty of time to address it. It's also possible that Balance scales too well. That's why we haven't taken any steps to adjust either spec so far.

If I had to guess, we will redirect some of Elemental's deep talents more towards raw damage than just utility, but that's just a guess at his point and not an official announcement.

---

So....

All the current data generated by players aren't valid until large datasets are built. By you i.e. Blizzard? By wowstats? by the shaman forum? Until such datasets are generated Elemental shaman are fine?

So elemental shaman dps is down at 70 because we don't get Lava Burst till 75, and then when we hit 80 we start getting diminishing returns again?

Why didn't the wait and see attitude prevent you from lowering our lightning bolt co-efficient till it became a problem? Why is it easier to nerf us and wait and see than it is to leave us alone and wait and see?

The fact is, I doubt you have the authority to do anything other than pass the message down the chain of command and your presence in the forums is damage control/ PR. But seriously.... why is there so much hate for us?

---

Q u o t e:


So....

All the current data generated by players aren't valid until large datasets are built. By you i.e. Blizzard? By wowstats? by the shaman forum? Until such datasets are generated Elemental shaman are fine?

So elemental shaman dps is down at 70 because we don't get Lava Burst till 75, and then when we hit 80 we start getting diminishing returns again?

Why didn't the wait and see attitude prevent you from lowering our lightning bolt co-efficient till it became a problem? Why is it easier to nerf us and wait and see than it is to leave us alone and wait and see?

The fact is, I doubt you have the authority to do anything other than pass the message down the chain of command and your presence in the forums is damage control/ PR. But seriously.... why is there so much hate for us?

---

It's not hate. It's the shaman 50% rule.

---

Q u o t e:



It's not hate. It's the shaman 50% rule.

---

Bingo!

---

Q u o t e:


Even if our damage is at par with a Balance Druid we fall to the wayside through utility. Boomkins replace almost all of our buff contributions plus 3% hit, 3% haste, 13% damage as well as Innervate and they are the best candidate for combat Rez's (which makes stacking them desireable). All shaman class buffs are provided by other specs of shaman aside from ToW which can be marginally made up for in Flametongue totem from other shaman and the crit aura only means anything without a Ret Paladin, which would be taken for replenish.

---

NO INTELLIGENT RAIDING MOONKIN TAKES IMPROVED FAERIE FIRE OR EVEN BOTHERS TO CAST IT!

STOP USING THAT ABILITY AGAINST US; WE DON"T USE IT AGAINST BOSSES! IT IS TERRIBLE!

Seriously, int he world of min/maxing raid fights, no Moonkin in their right, fluffy mind is going waste a GCD on faerie fire, let alone wasting the 30 or so required to maintain it throughout the fight.

I will acknowledge the haste buff does step on elemental toes, but the E&M remark is moot. Even most warlocks would agree that E&M is not that harmful, especially if it means they can use CoR or CoA instead.

No one stacks Moonkin in a raid for repeated battle rezes for two reasons:

1) We still are not that numerous.
2)No one goes into a raid expecting half their team to die. Period.