World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Why Ret Will Ultimately Fail in 80 Arena

Deviruchi

< Team RCA >

Akama

40. Re: Why Ret Will Ultimately Fail in 80 Arena 11/01/2008 06:59:34 PM PDT

Your initial, unsaid assumption that pallies should be contenders when it comes to melee dps is flawed.

Life is tough. It's even tougher if you're stupid.

Dansegnof

< Bluespyne >

Mal'Ganis

42. Re: Why Ret Will Ultimately Fail in 80 Arena 11/01/2008 07:08:10 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
when a ret paladin is making a team, he's thinking "What can i group up with to cover up my weaknesses" whereas most other classes think " Ok, what can i team up with that compliments my strengths?"

this.

And you only target rogues first in the early brackets. A good rogue can get out of anything. Op has a million points; well said.

This is why we should be not refer to pally having "survivability". It's longevity not survivability. We may take a while to die but in the end we're still dead and the other guy is just bored

Amphrites

< Arisen >

Doomhammer

43. Re: Why Ret Will Ultimately Fail in 80 Arena 11/01/2008 07:11:23 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
Your initial, unsaid assumption that pallies should be contenders when it comes to melee dps is flawed.

Right just because this dude fails all pallies should by association i think i'm starting to understand this better...

"To the ground babie!"
Honesty;
Ghostcrawler haz it hiddenlike...

Glowerss

Burning Blade

44. Re: Why Ret Will Ultimately Fail in 80 Arena 11/01/2008 07:59:36 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

You don't have to be serious, your rating, and your dual Ret Paladin team is serious enough for everyone to see.

Show me on Dual Enhance Shaman team with those ratings, or dual Feral Druid team for that matter.

Just one is all I need.

It isn't dual ret paladin. Ret/Ret can barely break 2050 now much less 2200. It's Ret paladin/healer (Holy paladin). And i could write a really long post on why holy paladins are pretty bad in arena now too, But it has been hashed out since s2 and blizzard still hasnt fixed it.

Glowerss

Burning Blade

45. Re: Why Ret Will Ultimately Fail in 80 Arena 11/01/2008 08:07:25 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
Your initial, unsaid assumption that pallies should be contenders when it comes to melee dps is flawed.

Well, what would you Qualify Ret as in arena? There are no secondary support classes in arena, which is why classes that perform all functions sub par ( Re: Enh SHaman). And even melee that arent functional or havent proven themselvs functional (Feral Druids, Enh. Shaman) have in the very least, a snare, a way to catch up, and a spell interupt.

Here is my problem that probably wasnt stated well enough : Think of any team composition that you want that has a ret paladin and no warrior or rogue. Now, try and think of one that wouldn't be better off with a warrior or a rogue. I honestly cannot think of a single team now that has a ret paladin without the crutch of a warrior or rogue carrying them that wouldn't be better off with said rogue or warrior. The utility is not enough to make up for the appalling lack of controll abilities.

Harcken

< quantum >

Malfurion

46. Re: Why Ret Will Ultimately Fail in 80 Arena 11/01/2008 08:42:13 PM PDT

I took the time to read the entire post, and I completely agree. We need some basic utilities to contend with rogues, and warriors. Of course, blizzard can be creative and disguise these abilities as they did with rogues and warriors (so people don't complain about classes being similar).

Burninpally

< Obstruction >

Hyjal

48. Re: Why Ret Will Ultimately Fail in 80 Arena 11/01/2008 08:53:00 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

Haha, you really have a distorted view of what class balance is.

Paladins have 10x more utility than Warriors, it wouldn't be right if they could also put out as much damage/burst as warriors while keeping Cleanse, JOJ, Bubble, BOP, and all the other abilities they have on top of being able to heal. This would make Paladins astronomically better than Warriors in every way.

You obviously didn't read the OPs post, so therefore are trolling and you are reported for it. But I am going to paraphrase what the OP said. We go oom way too fast for our utility to have any major effect upon an arena. No ret pally is going to kill a healer, while warriors and rogues are fully capable. This should not be.

http://i30.tinypic.com/25khtg5.jpg

This explains SOOO much.

Ghostcrawler

Blizzard Poster

49. Re: Why Ret Will Ultimately Fail in 80 Arena 11/01/2008 09:49:20 PM PDT

It is a well-thought out post.

The Mortal Strike debuff is a tricky one. We do realize how potent it is in Arenas and we have used it on occasion to give classes or specs a good role in Arenas. But then recently we stopped and asked ourself where we were going with MS. If Ret and Enhancement and Feral and whoever ends up with MS, what's the point really? Shouldn't we just start you in Arenas with healing at 50% and be done with it? This is a topic we're thinking a lot about.

On utility, the designers did agree that if we were going to keep hurting Ret's burst dps, which is a big thing they brought to a team, that we needed to give them some kind of tool to make up for it. We're not sure whether that will be a snare or interrupt or whatever, but the feedback on forums like this one will certainly help determine it. I am surprised to hear you say you don't have a lot of control, becaue I think that is the preception of a lot of classes on the receiving ends of your stuns.

Mana, rage and energy are different mechanics. Yeah, duh, I know, but hear me out. To a class with mana seeing players with a resource that never runs out can seem amazing. But the flip side of that is you start a battle with a full bar. A rogue (or druid) does too, but their bar goes dry in 2-3 hits while yours can last for a long time and pack a lot of hits into a short period. Rage can come back for a warrior (or druid) but they start with none and use a lot of it on every swing. Each of them has their advantages and disadvantages and I think we've done a pretty good job overall of preventing any one of them from dominating either PvP or PvE.

Also, anything named Baconstring should be something we get in the game almost no matter what.

Royastrasz

< The Scarlet March >

Maelstrom

50. Re: Why Ret Will Ultimately Fail in 80 Arena 11/01/2008 09:53:39 PM PDT

Not sure I agree with that.

Only because at 70 it seemed to be that outlast was the name of the game. Warriors and Rogues managed well (and Warlocks) because they all have the ability to last. I think that is the important part here.

From what I've heard, Paladins go OOM after things go on for a few minutes. I could understand such a thing for healers, but for damage dealing classes it seems to be a burden.

Edit: Not to mention the classes that -could- "outlast" seemed to do better than those that couldn't, just going on 2's and 3's.

[ Post edited by Royastrasz ]

Archon Royan Firewrynn - http://thescarletmarch.com

The original and best Scarlet March!

6/18 never forget

Gnomekicker

< Devils Advocates >

Stormscale

51. Re: Why Ret Will Ultimately Fail in 80 Arena 11/01/2008 09:53:46 PM PDT

odayumn

[ Post edited by Gnomekicker ]

Kaesho

< Momentum >

Echo Isles

52. Re: Why Ret Will Ultimately Fail in 80 Arena 11/01/2008 09:55:01 PM PDT

GC, since Judgement of Justice has been fixed to 10second duration in pvp can we get a small move speed decrease on it as well? Something like 5-15% would be dandy as with Pursuit of justice we're at 15% run speed and this would help us quite considerably, this way you dont have to give us a snare since wed have a small one of our own and perhaps we could get a gap closer like intercept?

Also, Hammer of justice isnt working properly, because on live many times iv tried to interupt with it on bosses and it doesnt work if the stun gets resisted.

I thought we could eat friends.

Vesper

Arygos

53. Re: Why Ret Will Ultimately Fail in 80 Arena 11/01/2008 09:58:25 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
Shouldn't we just start you in Arenas with healing at 50% and be done with it? This is a topic we're thinking a lot about.

if you want every PvP healer to become unplayable and quit the game, sure. It'd certainly break my addiction instantly.

Royastrasz

< The Scarlet March >

Maelstrom

54. Re: Why Ret Will Ultimately Fail in 80 Arena 11/01/2008 09:59:47 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

if you want every PvP healer to become unplayable and quit the game, sure. It'd certainly break my addiction instantly.

I'm pretty sure it was mainly a rhetorical point.

Archon Royan Firewrynn - http://thescarletmarch.com

The original and best Scarlet March!

6/18 never forget

Rollcage

< Solarwinds >

Jubei'Thos

55. Re: Why Ret Will Ultimately Fail in 80 Arena 11/01/2008 09:59:50 PM PDT

i disagree on ret pallies having alot of control, as a SV hunter, that's alot of control.

I find ret pallies to 'run out' of control relatively easy, its Hammer stun + repentance, then a minute or so with nothing. That's not control.

While my hunter is constant, 24 sec trap CDs, 30 Sec Scatter shots, 1 minute wyvern stings, thats alot of control.

Control really only works i guess when you have around 3 or more of CC type abilities, So for example if you gave paladins a silence effect, thats a chain control, hammer + Repent + silence. Alot of BE pallies could tell you how valuable that is.

MS is a boring effect, it's now too common, and to necessary at the same time. I'm really quite unhappy with my own MS, i hope you don't give it to my ret pally.

EDIT

Regarding Mortal strike debuffs, i think this would be a much more interesting mechanic if you staggered the ability, for example.

You up all classes damage *to compensate not having 100% MS uptime* and then give MS type effects high cost/CD requirements, Such as say, a 2 minute CD.

That way its constant High damage numbers, and healers are constant high healing numbers to counter, and Damage users can "pull out" their MS card in an attempt to defeat the opposing team.

This sounds like a much more fun and interesting way of handling Mortal strike, rather then give it to everyone so, make MS more valuable, and make it a strategic move to make, so Healers can spout "OHH CRAP IM MS'd" *pulls out random save card*.

[ Post edited by Rollcage ]

This wouldn't be in preparation for some disarming WOTLK skills would it? My spider sense is tingling.

Vesper

Arygos

56. Re: Why Ret Will Ultimately Fail in 80 Arena 11/01/2008 10:00:42 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

I'm pretty sure it was mainly a rhetorical point.

If it was anyone else than current day Blizzard, I'd think so as well.

Burninpally

< Obstruction >

Hyjal

58. Re: Why Ret Will Ultimately Fail in 80 Arena 11/01/2008 10:07:31 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
It is a well-thought out post.

The Mortal Strike debuff is a tricky one. We do realize how potent it is in Arenas and we have used it on occasion to give classes or specs a good role in Arenas. But then recently we stopped and asked ourself where we were going with MS. If Ret and Enhancement and Feral and whoever ends up with MS, what's the point really? Shouldn't we just start you in Arenas with healing at 50% and be done with it? This is a topic we're thinking a lot about.

On utility, the designers did agree that if we were going to keep hurting Ret's burst dps, which is a big thing they brought to a team, that we needed to give them some kind of tool to make up for it. We're not sure whether that will be a snare or interrupt or whatever, but the feedback on forums like this one will certainly help determine it. I am surprised to hear you say you don't have a lot of control, becaue I think that is the preception of a lot of classes on the receiving ends of your stuns.

Mana, rage and energy are different mechanics. Yeah, duh, I know, but hear me out. To a class with mana seeing players with a resource that never runs out can seem amazing. But the flip side of that is you start a battle with a full bar. A rogue (or druid) does too, but their bar goes dry in 2-3 hits while yours can last for a long time and pack a lot of hits into a short period. Rage can come back for a warrior (or druid) but they start with none and use a lot of it on every swing. Each of them has their advantages and disadvantages and I think we've done a pretty good job overall of preventing any one of them from dominating either PvP or PvE.

Also, anything named Baconstring should be something we get in the game almost no matter what.

How about a new resource. Zeal. A mix of energy and rage. It restores up to 50% like energy, but in order to push that up to 100% you need rage. Something that will enable us to do steady damage, via energy-like gains, but allow us to store up that rage and unleash a flurry of rapid burst when needed. This will allow us to avoid mana problems and we will need 0 int, yay! I know this is an "out there" concept, but I really think it can work. We will have the infinite resources that a melee class should have, but we will have to time when we are going to burst based on our Zeal. Please think about it.

http://i30.tinypic.com/25khtg5.jpg

This explains SOOO much.

Reks

< Happy Cows >

Cenarius

59. Re: Why Ret Will Ultimately Fail in 80 Arena 11/01/2008 10:10:10 PM PDT

Great post, really gets to what I feel are the flaws in the Ret tree.

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