---

Q u o t e:


Careful what you say, if you remember we were good after BC came out and then they gutted us with nerfs in 2.0.10 about a month or so after launch...I pray this doesn't happen again, hopefully they took note how we scaled less than the rest of the game and wait until everyone has been 80 for a while (and gathered decent gear) before they reevaluate us...And that goes for buffing or nerfing us lol.

---

They nerfed Bear because it was doing too much damage while tanking. It was also very powerful in PvP because of that, but it wasn't because of how we were performing in a PvP setting. They have since changed that back because they want tanks to do good damage.

Hopefully we can get some other Classes in here like this forum is suppose to do. Feral is a tough case, I guess. It's really hard to understand what our issues are if you've never played one in a semi-competative play. (Hamstring>Feral Mana :P)

It's disappointing to see that feral is again going to be a joke for competitive PvP. I don't have any confidence in their ability to fix it either (It's already been years). I don't want to just tank full time so I guess I'll shelve the druid and move on.

---

Q u o t e:


While testing Ferals, did you ever try spamming Cat Form with snaring abilities? There is no effective way to respond.

Right now at 70, Feral is overpowered, however, once the survivability and health of everyone goes up, that will change. We don't scale well, and our damage won't be able to kill healers other than Priests. We lack any sort of bite aganst Shamans, Palidans, and other Druid healers because of our lack of Mortal Strike or Mana Draining abilities. I don't want these, but I think Water Shield being greater than our damage is a bit embarrassing.

With all these issues, most Ferals are worried about Mana to just shift, cast CC, and heal with. If mana is staying how it is, please address the healer issue without making a Feral rely on his mana pool(CC chaining and Healing) to succeed.

Feral in standard PvP, where gear and skill varies(current BGs), is fine how it is, but it will not succeed in arena or against stronger players.

(On a side note, if the direction your heading with Feral Druids is to get us to stay in forms a lot more and rarely CC/Heal, it's always been one of the most fun things a Feral could do. Taking that away is likely going to turn me into a laser chicken. :P)

---

Feral isn't overpowered at 70 right now, except in a few duel matchups (warriors, disc priests, sub rogues). Those have very little significance to anything, most classes have unwinnable duels now because of changes in the last patch. We're better off than we were before, but that is GOOD, because we weren't very well off before.

At 80 we're going to be in a position less fun and less tenable than we were before this patch at 70.

Hmm I made a thread starting with the following post which was deleted for some reason... Maybe because it should have gone in a pre-existing thread? I don't know, here goes.

---

Q u o t e:
We're not trying to punish Feral with a lack of mana or anything. We're just evaluating how they perform and what they do, especially in PvP with regards to this issue. The bottom line is we're not sure yet if it's really a problem or if the Feral players are just having trouble adjusting to the change. (I understand many of them *say* it's a problem.)

We also aren't trying to make Balance and Resto the shifting specs. However, as mana-using classes they are going to be able to do more with that mana, such as healing. We want druids to be able to shift -- that is a major part of the class. The only thing in contention is how often is too often and how much can they do in night elf or tauren form.

---

Hi Ghost, I have a simple question about feral mana:

You've said that one of the things the devs are trying to work out is how much shifting/casting out of form a Feral should be able to do.

What was your assessment of feral mana at level 70? Were Feral Druids able to shapeshift and cast spells more than you were comfortable with? What about now at 3.0 level 70, where we currently have the 'best of both worlds' situation of still having intellect on our gear and benefitting from both Heart of the Wild and Improved Leader of the Pack?

If we are currently too good at casting/shifting could you let us know how you see this? And if not, then why is this aspect of the class being significantly worsened in WotLK?

Important bullets for context:

• I am referring to PvP. In PvE, mana is largely irrelevant and when it isn't Improved LoTP comes in very handy (like when 4-manning Molten Core and being the dps and decurser)
  
• The reason I say that casting/shifting gets worse as we approach 80 is that at 70 we have lots of intellect on our gear and at 80 we have none. So mana goes down while costs go up.
  
• For me, the whole point of being a Feral Druid is versatility. I love being able to switch between clawing faces, tossing heals, rooting, cycloning, charging, etc. In fast-paced PvP, I shift a lot and I don't just mean to break snares. To me this is the golden heart of the Druid class.

---

Q u o t e:
Important bullets for context:

• I am referring to PvP. In PvE, mana is largely irrelevant and when it isn't Improved LoTP comes in very handy (like when 4-manning Molten Core and being the dps and decurser)
  
• The reason I say that casting/shifting gets worse as we approach 80 is that at 70 we have lots of intellect on our gear and at 80 we have none. So mana goes down while costs go up.
  
• For me, the whole point of being a Feral Druid is versatility. I love being able to switch between clawing faces, tossing heals, rooting, cycloning, charging, etc. In fast-paced PvP, I shift a lot and I don't just mean to break snares. To me this is the golden heart of the Druid class.

---

I tried Balance, and it feels a lot like Feral used to in terms of versatility. It's a shame Feral is looking to suffer again. It's just so frustrating that they are pushing us to be similar to Rogues with no wound poison.

If nothing else is done, I'll be focusing on my orbital owl laser cannon spec. :)

---

Q u o t e:
We're not trying to punish Feral with a lack of mana or anything. We're just evaluating how they perform and what they do, especially in PvP with regards to this issue. The bottom line is we're not sure yet if it's really a problem or if the Feral players are just having trouble adjusting to the change. (I understand many of them *say* it's a problem.)

We also aren't trying to make Balance and Resto the shifting specs. However, as mana-using classes they are going to be able to do more with that mana, such as healing. We want druids to be able to shift -- that is a major part of the class. The only thing in contention is how often is too often and how much can they do in night elf or tauren form.

---

As of 3.02 I haven't had any issues with mana cost with shifting as far Battle Grounds and I haven't been in arena's since the patch. With the Change of gear in WOLTK and smaller mana pool for ferals I can see a hinderance in shifting forms. Maybe a Mechanics change on how shifting works for all forms if something like this has/hasn't been tested.

Caster Form to Bear, Cat, Travel, costs Mana

Cat Form to Bear, Travel, Caster costs Energy

Bear Form to Cat, Travel, Caster Ccosts Rage

(Caster Form also includes Tree and Moonkin)

Doing so might help with smaller mana pools for ferals and also it would fit each form better as your using that forms Rage. Energy, Mana

---

Q u o t e:


I tried Balance, and it feels a lot like Feral used to in terms of versatility. It's a shame Feral is looking to suffer again. It's just so frustrating that they are pushing us to be similar to Rogues with no wound poison.

If nothing else is done, I'll be focusing on my orbital owl laser cannon spec. :)

---

Yeah Blizz has to take notice of just how ineffective are and how vulnerable it makes us in order to cast these (or CC)...

A feral is in his weakest form when he shifts out, into caster...All it takes is for us to get stunned or feared while in this form and we're at the total mercy of our opponents...We not only have less mitigation, but become susceptible to mana burns/drains. I can't tell you how many times in the arenas I've been hit by a fear in the middle of shifting, or trying to toss out a little CC or healing, and I get manaburned...And to a feral who on live only has 7600~ mana, and 800 mana per shift, it doesn't take but a few mana burns to really own a feral's mana pool.

And all that just to try and CC my target for what, 6 seconds, or to toss a mediocre heal (with the crit changes, I've got almost 20% to crit with heals...and when my HT crits, that's at most about 4k health...which any class can deal that amount of damage very quickly to a feral in caster form).

I don't understand how the devs could feel that a spec that revolves around shifting and utilizing multiple forms for their multiple abilities would be "shifting too much"... That's what the whole spec has revolved around since I started this druid really, even when I was leveling up back in the days of 1.0, as a half resto half balance hybrid (yeah, all our trees pretty much sucked back then, especially feral lol).

We have to shift to gain access to the other half (or 2/3 if you count caster form) of the abilities we have. That's like telling a warrior he can't stance dance as much anymore. Having played a warrior EXTENSIVELY back at 60, I was very good at changing stances based on the situation and restricting his ability to do so, such as it is with my feral druid and shifting, would have been detrimental to the class.

---

Q u o t e:
We're not trying to punish Feral with a lack of mana or anything. We're just evaluating how they perform and what they do, especially in PvP with regards to this issue. The bottom line is we're not sure yet if it's really a problem or if the Feral players are just having trouble adjusting to the change. (I understand many of them *say* it's a problem.)

---

Ghost, I am amazed that you guys are still "evaluating" this. Now I could be jumping to conclusions here, but six shifts before oom WITH Natural Shapeshifter? Really? I won't be condescending and ask if you've ever seen a good feral PVP, but shifting is what we do. It's not a nifty little thing we can pull out of our pocket if we're really in trouble, it's our bread, butter, jelly, toast, Kibbles 'N Bits, EVERYTHING.

Adjusting to the change? What change? Are you saying we should adjust to having an abysmal mana pool and being almost unable to shift? The amount of "planning" you want for the split-second decision to change forms is obscene; impossible, even. It's like giving a priest 1k mana and telling it to heal an entire 5v5 team with it, saying they should "adjust to the change" and "make decisions" with their mana. It's just not possible.

We *say* it's a problem because it is. We're not just random scrubs that've never PVP'd before. Many of us are seasoned veterans of both the arena and BG's.

---

Q u o t e:


Ghost, I am amazed that you guys are still "evaluating" this. Now I could be jumping to conclusions here, but six shifts before oom WITH Natural Shapeshifter? Really? I won't be condescending and ask if you've ever seen a good feral PVP, but shifting is what we do. It's not a nifty little thing we can pull out of our pocket if we're really in trouble, it's our bread, butter, jelly, toast, Kibbles 'N Bits, EVERYTHING.

Adjusting to the change? What change? Are you saying we should adjust to having an abysmal mana pool and being almost unable to shift? The amount of "planning" you want for the split-second decision to change forms is obscene; impossible, even. It's like giving a priest 1k mana and telling it to heal an entire 5v5 team with it, saying they should "adjust to the change" and "make decisions" with their mana. It's just not possible.

We *say* it's a problem because it is. We're not just random scrubs that've never PVP'd before. Many of us are seasoned veterans of both the arena and BG's.

---

Which is exactly why we'll equip some pieces of resto gear for PvP in order to keep doing it unless they give us some reasonable talent fix. It's the way the spec needs to be played, and what makes the spec fun to play. I don't want to have to do that and I don't think any other feral does either, but we'll HAVE to.

---

Q u o t e:


Which is exactly why we'll equip some pieces of resto gear for PvP in order to keep doing it unless they give us some reasonable talent fix. It's the way the spec needs to be played, and what makes the spec fun to play. I don't want to have to do that and I don't think any other feral does either, but we'll HAVE to.

---

Compare Season 1 gear with Season 4 gear. When they took away the healing, it was like pulling teeth. Now, we're all better for it, and believe it or not, there are more Ferals that had success. I trust Blizzard, but I just don't think they are getting enough feedback.

I'm fine staying in forms longer, so long as the forms actually have some bite. Give it some time. We lost our healing, and they introduced Nurturing Instinct in it's new form.

I'm screwing around with Balance because I think they are trying to turn it into a more hybrid playstyle. Feral is being pushed to be very similar to a Rogue. Blizzard has made posts on MS, and that did show some promise. I think they are really looking into melee hybrids now, and we will either see results soon, or after the first Season in WOTLK when they have more feedback.

Here's hoping for soon. :)

---

Q u o t e:


Compare Season 1 gear with Season 4 gear. When they took away the healing, it was like pulling teeth. Now, we're all better for it, and believe it or not, there are more Ferals that had success. I trust Blizzard, but I just don't think they are getting enough feedback.

I'm fine staying in forms longer, so long as the forms actually have some bite. Give it some time. We lost our healing, and they introduced Nurturing Instinct in it's new form.

I'm screwing around with Balance because I think they are trying to turn it into a more hybrid playstyle. Feral is being pushed to be very similar to a Rogue. Blizzard has made posts on MS, and that did show some promise. I think they are really looking into melee hybrids now, and we will either see results soon, or after the first Season in WOTLK when they have more feedback.

Here's hoping for soon. :)

---

There's a good reason why removing the +healing from gear worked out: Because we begged for weeks for a buff to Nurturing Instinct, and we got it.

The cat-form-zerg idea is fine as an idea, but it's not what I actually want to play, and it's not what most ferals seem to want to play. Furthermore we just don't have the survival tools to pull that off right now anyway. Things like CloS, Vanish, Evasion, Gouge, Sap, Blind, Wound Poison, and (now) Dismantle are what let a rogue do it. I use cat form, a lot, obviously, and I like it. But it's just one of many many facets of playing the spec.

Feral relies on healing and adaptability to live. There aren't really two ways around that. I haven't given up on getting a talent change either or I wouldn't be posting here.

The latest feral movie by Chrille on warcraftmovies.com - http://www.warcraftmovies.com/movieview.php?id=93723

If anyone of influence reads this thread then just watch it and then maybe you can understand what we mean by feral mana issues. Granted he is dueling quite a few frost mages, but even with his current mana pool he is almost always oom by the end of the fight. He would have had absolutely no hope in those fights with a lower mana pool and the same abilites.

Woot!

That would solve a LOT of problems for ferals :D

Nice, grats ferals! =]

OMFG THIS IS AWESOME

---

Q u o t e:
We are probably going to add an additional shapeshifting cost break somewhere in deep Feral. It would be 50% off cat and bear form (probably not travel) and would stack with Natural Shapeshifter, for 80% off total. This would allow a Feral druid, especially a PvP-focused one, to be able to reduce shifting costs down quite a bit for an appropriate talent cost.

While you still wouldn't have a ton of mana available for healing, you would be able to shift a lot more often than you're doing now, and of course your mana will still regen in cat or bear form.

I'll announce it for sure when we've thought a little bit more about where we'll put the talent, but I wouldn't tease you with this unless we were fairly positive that we're going to do it.

---

Ehh, I still think the best suggestion for feral and druids that I have ever heard is have feral attack power scale with spell power. A few talent tweaks and druids will all use the same type of leather. Makes multiple specs a lot easier restores the hybrid feel of the class naturally enough. It also works well with dual specs when they come out.

---

Q u o t e:
We are probably going to add an additional shapeshifting cost break somewhere in deep Feral. It would be 50% off cat and bear form (probably not travel) and would stack with Natural Shapeshifter, for 80% off total. This would allow a Feral druid, especially a PvP-focused one, to be able to reduce shifting costs down quite a bit for an appropriate talent cost.

While you still wouldn't have a ton of mana available for healing, you would be able to shift a lot more often than you're doing now, and of course your mana will still regen in cat or bear form.

I'll announce it for sure when we've thought a little bit more about where we'll put the talent, but I wouldn't tease you with this unless we were fairly positive that we're going to do it.

---

That's great to hear GC, thank you.

It will eliminate the need to worry about mana, but where do you stand as far as healing power goes? The ability of a feral to simply heal himself in PvP, is substantially worse off at level 80 than level 70. I think we are all fine with low mana and limited healing, so long as shifting remains, but should we not be able to at least self heal equivalently at level 80?

HoTs will not be as effective for ferals at 80 as they are at 70. That means most of our self healing is likely to be glyphed HTs or Nourish. Both fail to benefit adequately from NI. If your dev team is against the idea of buffing healing power, what about simply allowing NI's +20% healing to also affect caster form? We'd not be able to support heal others very well at all, but would at least have more balanced self support.

---

Q u o t e:
We are probably going to add an additional shapeshifting cost break somewhere in deep Feral. It would be 50% off cat and bear form (probably not travel) and would stack with Natural Shapeshifter, for 80% off total. This would allow a Feral druid, especially a PvP-focused one, to be able to reduce shifting costs down quite a bit for an appropriate talent cost.

While you still wouldn't have a ton of mana available for healing, you would be able to shift a lot more often than you're doing now, and of course your mana will still regen in cat or bear form.

I'll announce it for sure when we've thought a little bit more about where we'll put the talent, but I wouldn't tease you with this unless we were fairly positive that we're going to do it.

---

Thanks so much for the reply Ghostcrawler, it is great to know you guys are doing something about it.

However I have to say I am still worried about our mana pools at 80 as I actually want to be able to heal / CC as much as I can at 70... I don't think that it is unbalanced at all, in fact I still consider less mana at 80 a nerf even if there is a reduction in our shifting costs. Probably what will happen is PvP ferals will eqip gear with extra mana, I am not sure if that is something you intend or not.