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Q u o t e:
The taunt is there because we thought it might be fun in a 5-player instance for the warlock to be able to tank once in awhile, especially if the main tank goes down on a pull. It's not the signature ability of Metamorphosis.

We don't have a problem with the spell. It is useful in PvP and provides a nice damage buff in PvE. Some of its abilities, like the Immolate, can be useful in the right situations.

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You know what ghost?

Thats really sad. But fine, Yes as a single point talent metamorph is great. Wonderful infact. However the rest of the Demo tree sucks, and instead of having the entire tree redesigned Meta would probably be an easier folcrum to balance around.

So hey, that's fine. You guys like Meta, even though the players don't (even though its just a focus point at the moment, most of demonologist problems have been spelled out for you since before beta) Thats fine. I can wait. I don't mind playing my druid or even my warlock. But its going to get to the point where you HAVE to redesign demo or make a talent like Meta that possibly brings the spec up to par in a single spec make or break point.

All things considering, with the gear wipe and all, I was rather suprised Demo remained in such a stale state. So then I had hope that the easier, albeit less creative methode was taken and you would make Meta worthwhile. And its currently not. In PvP or PvE. Mainly due to the cluster !@%@ tree that is demo.

Its ok though. Its just more work for you guys down the road.

So please, go ahead and take your time. Im in no rush, bad spec design or not, I enjoy the game. And I have faith that you will get it fixed. It's what you guys do. I'm not to big of a raider, and if it ever comes to the point where I am being left out do to my class, Its time i start looking for a new guild and friends.

Ignore the hateful comment and what now. You guys do what you do, weather we, as the players, like it or not, and thats ok cuz its your game. One suggestion I would have however is don't host a beta if you are not going to listen to the feedback given. Every single feedback of any size in the Warlock betas talked of Demos problems, and meta, and afflictions and just the classes in general. And yet nothings changed.

So while I will still play your game, and have fun doing so, its rather insulting and deceitful to open a beta and ignore the feedback given ,and call it what you want, thats whats been done, and even if you ARE discussing things around the office, its just in the office so us players are just sitting by thinking you are ignoring the pages of data given.

Enjoy your evening Ghostcrawler. I do hope im wrong, but as I said, even if you ARE planning some sort of sweeping change for just after WotLK or even a year down the road, untill its mentioned to the public, it doesnt matter whats going on. Its just the way the general populace thinks.

Shadowsouled
Windrunner

you do know you are immune to Polymorph and Sap while in demon form right? probably a few other CCs as well.

you may be easier to CC against a paladin or a warlock but it's annoying not being able to Polymorph warlocks in demonform.

Metamorphosis is meant to be situational like many of the 51 point talents.

Also, don't worry about the DPS of that tree right now. They're going to keep working on balancing the DPS out. If it's suffering they'll fix it.

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Q u o t e:
you do know you are immune to Polymorph and Sap while in demon form right? probably a few other CCs as well.

you may be easier to CC against a paladin or a warlock but it's annoying not being able to Polymorph warlocks in demonform.

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I didn't know that. That's a cool bonus of being morphed. If I were a lock in a 2v2 against a mage I would certainly Metamorph.

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Q u o t e:

Our new design is there are no PvP vs. PvE trees. But it will take some time to reach this point because we didn't want to rip out every talent of every class and start over. The death knight has 3 trees with different flavors, but no PvP, PvE and tanking tree. The warrior and hunter are a lot closer to that than they used to be. We're working on all the others, including Demo.

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Which is absolutely the direction the game should go. Heck, it should have been there from the start, but we didn't really have you back then. Arms being great dps, fury being great in pvp and prot doing non-pathetic damage as well as facing some ridiculous pvp capability really show the intention of you (and the developers) in terms of making trees non specific. I welcome with open arms the same changes happening to specs like protection (paladin) and holy (priest) for pvp and demo (warlock) and discipline (priest) in for pve as examples.

As wrath moves forward people will start to see this as reality and it will make things even easier on you as suggestions come forward down that vein.

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Q u o t e:


Which is absolutely the direction the game should go. Heck, it should have been there from the start, but we didn't really have you back then. Arms being great dps, fury being great in pvp and prot doing non-pathetic damage as well as facing some ridiculous pvp capability really show the intention of you (and the developers) in terms of making trees non specific. I welcome with open arms the same changes happening to specs like protection (paladin) and holy (priest) for pvp and demo (warlock) and discipline (priest) in for pve as examples.

As wrath moves forward people will start to see this as reality and it will make things even easier on you as suggestions come forward down that vein.

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And you know, while I'm on this subject, I wanted to vent something that really crushed me for a while. The blizzcast that got released just prior to 2.4 had Kalgan I believe commenting on how they didn't intend to make certain specs viable in pvp due to gear issues, and he specifically referenced the warrior's protection tree as falling under that catagory. I was really disappointed with the developers with that, but I chugged along. When DK information began leaking out during WotLK alpha and the word of no tree being a specific role, my hope was renewed. It only got better from there. I'm sure it was by no means a small shift in paradigm, but it was a hugely appreciated one.

Thanks, and good luck doing the same to the other specs stuck in corners as what you did to prot.

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Q u o t e:
The taunt is there because we thought it might be fun in a 5-player instance for the warlock to be able to tank once in awhile

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But you're pretty screwed if you can't kill the mob in 30 secs, right?

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Q u o t e:


But you're pretty screwed if you can't kill the mob in 30 secs, right?

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Then you better kill it quick! I certainly wouldn't mind an extra 30 seconds of tanking if I were a healer. That's HUGE. I can't imagine a trash mob in a 5 man that would take longer than that. If it's a boss then that 30 seconds still could be make or break. A lock that knows how to use it will be awesome. Separate the good locks from the bad.

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Q u o t e:
Why is there a taunt!?

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Wait what? Good lord, how about I trade you my bubble for your taunt? You think I'm crazy but I can't use the bubble while tanking, and you'll want it when my taunt fails for one of about a hundred different reasons, and the boss is about to one shot you.

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Q u o t e:


Wait what? Good lord, how about I trade you my bubble for your taunt? You think I'm crazy but I can't use the bubble while tanking, and you'll want it when my taunt fails for one of about a hundred different reasons, and the boss is about to one shot you.

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The boss isn't going to one shot a metamorphed warlock...

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Q u o t e:
but we are also concerned Demo's survivability might make it the only raiding spec if its dps was just as high

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You know my post at the top of this page was meant to be totally different than how it came out.

So I'll try this again without the angst. or whatever.

Demo doesnt have more survivability than affliction (atleast that one spec, Im not a big destro guru)
First and foremost, Soul Link, the majority of the Warlocks Survivability is now obtainable to any spec, and yet Demo gets its damage punished.

Affliction drains, snares, heals(though I guess haunt can kinda be called a drain), access to soul link, and one of the drains can be on multiple targets at once. Its why Affliction is the grinding spec. Its got the power and survivability to outlast demonology in multi target situations in PvE, and in PvP it was both a mix of Affliction and Demonology that made the SL/SL tank.

Demonology has Soul Link, a Damage reduction or damage increase via Master demo (meaning pet specific), a instant pet once every arena match or once every 15 mins, and Meta. for 30 seconds out of 3 mins. Its also got Demonic resill I guess. Its a nice one.

In truth Demonology has more than that, but they are so early in the tree any spec has acces to them.

Talents like Demonic embrace, Demonic Aegis, Soul Link. Those are nice survivability boosts. However, its hardl fair to punish demo when any spec can pick those talents up.

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Q u o t e:


The boss isn't going to one shot a metamorphed warlock...

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It certainly can if it crits. Their taunt is actually an AOE taunt too, though at least not subject to the higher failure rate of the pally version, but nonetheless, I rescind my offer.

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Q u o t e:
What I said, and I clarified later, was that Affliction and Destro seem to do competitive damage in PvE. Demo is lower than that, which is not ideal, but we are also concerned Demo's survivability might make it the only raiding spec if its dps was just as high. In the meantime, we think people will still spec Demo because it is useful in PvP.

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In PvE, after a certain gear level, survivability really is pretty insignificant. If a demon locks pulls agro from a boss, he's still going to get one or two shotted in most cases, soul link I don't think is strong enough to allow the lock to take a few 15k hits, even at level 80 I imagine. The only time more survivability helps is when you don't know when to run away from aoe fire or something. For a semi-geared, decent player that can avoid fire, increased survivability doesn't matter at all after a certain point because a good player with normal raiding gear under normal circumstances isn't going to die unless they're stupid, and if they're stupid demonology isn't going to let them live that much longer anyhow.

If you need a reason to buff Demonology DPS, wouldn't having to micro-manage a felguard at melee range be a significant enough of a draw back to justify buffing the tree's damage? Having to micro manage a pet and weave him in and out of aoe damage I would think makes up for a little bit of survivability because you have to look out for two characters basically.

I would imagine a demo lock that loses a felguard is at a more significant disadvantage than an affliction lock that loses a felhunter or a destruction lock that loses an imp considering talents like demonic knowledge, demonic pact, demonic empathy, master demonologist, etc, all talents that buff the player as well as the demon, are lost when the felguard dies. Unlike an affliction lock without a felhunter or a destruction lock without an imp, a demonology lock without a felguard is gimped. A long 15 minute fel domination cool down doesn't help much either.

I was a big fan of using a felguard for raiding with the 2 piece t5 set bonus, however pet survivability in later raids was the big reason why a lot of us had to give it up despite a fun play style. In Wotlk, Is pet survivability a non-issue in PvE now that its been significantly buffed through talents and base stats, or do you think the burden of relying on a pet for a significant portion of DPS as well as a higher degree of difficulty in pet micromanagement compared to the other trees be justifications for at least buffing Demonology DPS a little in order for it to become closer to affliction and destruction?

Didn't a blue post say that they didn't think a warlock should be able to out dps another mage without a pet out? In this case, even spec'd for the tree that relies on pet damage, other dps classes will still outperform the demonology lock despite additional micromanagement problems.

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Q u o t e:


What I said, and I clarified later, was that Affliction and Destro seem to do competitive damage in PvE. Demo is lower than that, which is not ideal, but we are also concerned Demo's survivability might make it the only raiding spec if its dps was just as high. In the meantime, we think people will still spec Demo because it is useful in PvP.

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This is fine, I can see warlocks raiding as demon alot more if you were to fix a few points to improve it's dps. Suggestions are

1. Make the felguard put out more dps, it's the reason we go so far down in the tree, make it worth it.
2. Make demonic Pack stack with shamans totem of wrath, this could get more than 1 of us to a raid.
3. Meta needs to be on a better GCD than it is currently, maybe our haste rating could influence its cooldown, more haste quicker cooldown.

To finish, I hope Blizzard is really looking into our class, not just hopeing we will re roll another class.
Im praying everyday that Blizz hears us warlocks and does something

I like Metamorphosis. I don't like the rest of the tree.

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Q u o t e:
The taunt is there because we thought it might be fun in a 5-player instance for the warlock to be able to tank once in awhile, especially if the main tank goes down on a pull. It's not the signature ability of Metamorphosis.

We don't have a problem with the spell. It is useful in PvP and provides a nice damage buff in PvE. Some of its abilities, like the Immolate, can be useful in the right situations.

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5 man raids?

What about the new 10 man and 25 raids with the exspansion??? did you even consider this, or just took demon form as oh well it'll do for now?