World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Stop Ignoring Holy Paladins

Inhaler

Blackrock

21. Re: GC - Stop Ignoring Holy Paladins 11/01/2008 07:58:36 AM PDT

Q u o t e:
Bacon

Where?

Dania

Uldaman

22. Re: GC - Stop Ignoring Holy Paladins 11/01/2008 09:48:58 AM PDT

If we look ok on spreadsheets I guess they won't bother much... I said and I will say it again, we need help when it comes to 25 man. Having 2-3 CoH priests and 2-3 resto shamans in your raid, makes your effective healing something to laugh at while overhealing goes to the roof... But I guess this will remain something to look at for the next xpac... As always, we get the short stick, and the last class to be reviewed...

Ghostcrawler

Blizzard Poster

23. Re: GC - Stop Ignoring Holy Paladins 11/01/2008 06:02:51 PM PDT

Please stop ignoring us Holy Paladins.

Q u o t e:
Aura Mastery - This needs to be removed and made baseline, Holy paladins need a new 11 point talent.

A little bit of explanation wouldn't hurt when you make claims like this. Typically we don't like to turn good talents into baseline abilities. That either leaves you with mediocre talents or the next tier of good talents (that you ask to be turned into core abilities).

Q u o t e:
Illumination - Needs a buff, mana return back to 100%? At least 75%

There was a time not too long ago where Holy paladins just didn't run out of mana. This was not good for the game.

Q u o t e:
Holy paladins are still locked down to easy in pvp and bring nothing special to aid the group, whats being done to fix this?

This is a little vague for me to be able to address your concerns. I do think there may be something to the issue that Arena teams want a healer with some offensive capabilities as well, even if that means Mass Dispel.

Q u o t e:
We are close to no longer being the best single target healer. Other classes are catching up and paladins are being removed from raids.

I haven't seen any evidence that paladins are being removed from raids in LK. In BC, that started to happen because healers needed to move a lot and raids required a ton of AE heals which didn't play into paladin strengths. We chilled down those elements as well as giving paladins more tools for those situations (such as Infusion of Light and Beacon of Light).

Q u o t e:
Beacon of Light - Is horrible in its current state, at least lower the mana cost, make it work on overhealing, and make it last longer.

I have seen an awful lot of paladins who really like Beacon. Since you sound like someone who is active in the community, I would imagine you know this, so it surprises me you would state that Beacon is horrible as if it were an accepted fact. You're at least going to have to offer some more evidence.

Q u o t e:
Judgements of the Pure - Worst 5 point talent ever made. Its so deep in the holy tree and all it dose is give 15% haste? Not worth it at all.

Before we buffed Pure, I think it was underpowered. We hesitated because we saw some player calculations that it could have been decent even in its own form. Now in its new form, we feel like it is pretty potent. If it has a disadvantage, it's that it might invalidate some of the earlier Holy talents.

Q u o t e:
JUDGEING IN COMBAT ISNT FUN. Its very annoying, mobs are taken down way to fast to even bother, this would only work on bosses.

Part of the reason we did this was because a complaint we heard from Holy paladins was they wanted more buttons to push than just FoL and HL. Judging seemed like a natural fit since it was already part of the paladin repetoire. This perplexes me a little since you then ask for new healing spells down below. Perhaps you or someone else could elaborate? (Having 40 yard ranged Judgements is pretty nice too.)

Q u o t e:
Holy Guidance - Every other tree has a similar talent but theres is 3 points, gives more spell power AND has a secondary effeft!! Why do Holy paladins have such a horible version!

It's difficult to just directly compare talents between two different classes or specs. We can take a look at this one in particular though.

Q u o t e:
NO NEW HEALING SPELLS? ok in BC i could settle for no new spells but now in wrath its just plain stupid.

Sorry, we disagree. We don't want to just keep adding new rotational spells every expansion or classes are going to end up with just too many buttons -- some specs are dangerously close to that already. Instead we added some more situational heals. The paladin has been designed around Flash of Light, just like the shaman was designed around Chain Heal. We didn't want to completely change what these classes were all about, in part because a lot of players like them as they are. We figured players who gravitate towards wanting lots of different kinds of heals can play the druid or priest. Players who want to have relatively few spells and can then focus on cooldowns, trinkets or the like can play the paladin or shaman. We think it would be dangerous for paladins to pick up Lich King and find their class had completely changed.

But we did make some major changes to specs like the Prot warrior and Shadow priest. If there are enough Holy paladins who think the spec is fundamentally broken and not fun, then that's something on which we'd like to see more discussion from you guys. Just remember not everyone automatically agrees with you. :)

Brassiere

< Harajuku Girls >

Scilla

24. Re: GC - Stop Ignoring Holy Paladins 11/01/2008 06:07:26 PM PDT

Hey I'm sorry to go off topic and I know this is a bit inappropriate for the thread but could you please read the thread that pertains to the issues of disc/holy priests in pvp? I realize that a lot of people dislike arena but those of us who enjoy high end arena are worried that there is no one who really seems to understand what is needed. Ty

Vitreous

< Twelve >

Frostmourne

25. Re: GC - Stop Ignoring Holy Paladins 11/01/2008 06:09:17 PM PDT

Can you please respond to this thread on the Priest Beta forums, GC?

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=11296509440&sid=2000

You previously stated that you didn't "have the bandwidth right now to answer them", but we haven't heard from you since. Can we please get some solid answers like the other classes have?

Codar

Shadow Council

26. Re: GC - Stop Ignoring Holy Paladins 11/01/2008 06:09:38 PM PDT

Are you considering any other part of the paladin class (leveling, protection, holy) while you are "toning" down retribution?

Are you making any effort to make holy paladins competitive in arena?

James

< Order of the Silver … >

Silvermoon

28. Re: GC - Stop Ignoring Holy Paladins 11/01/2008 06:15:09 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
A little bit of explanation wouldn't hurt when you make claims like this. Typically we don't like to turn good talents into baseline abilities. That either leaves you with mediocre talents or the next tier of good talents (that you ask to be turned into core abilities).

No offense, but have you not heard people talking about this before? I think he didn't give an explanation because it's been explained to death on the forums and assumed everyone knows it. I'm probably not the best person to explain, though I'll try. It basically amounts to the fact that it's silly for them to not be 40 yds baseline, not only because it's the max range for many people, but also because Paladins are the aura masters, and have the only auras that have to be talented to have a 40+ yd range. There's a little more to it.

Imagine a fight like Prince or... Murmur?. The healers are going to be standing at more or less max range. Their auras aren't going to be hitting melee. So you talent it to 40 and it's fine right? But what about the ret and/or prot paladins up front. Their auras aren't hitting the healers, and they can't talent for it. Everyone needs it, I guess.

Q u o t e:
I have seen an awful lot of paladins who really like Beacon. Since you sound like someone who is active in the community, I would imagine you know this, so it surprises me you would state that Beacon is horrible as if it were an accepted fact. You're at least going to have to offer some more evidence.

Honestly, to me it seems like most of the paladins who love Beacon say that just to be different. Personally, I like Beacon, but I still feel it could use some tweaks.

Q u o t e:
Sorry, we disagree. We don't want to just keep adding new rotational spells every expansion or classes are going to end up with just too many buttons -- some specs are dangerously close to that already.

I understand that fear, except it sounds like you agree holy paladins aren't close to that. So what's wrong with throwing things to the people that aren't close?

[ Post edited by James ]

"Players are people too... They have feelings - yes it's a game, but people - like you: put their time and money into it. Some (if not many) have emotional ties to... characters they've made." -Levinq

Vesper

Arygos

29. Re: GC - Stop Ignoring Holy Paladins 11/01/2008 06:18:43 PM PDT

Not understanding why it's apparently too much for Paladins to get a new rotational ability to use in their rotation of... uh... Flash of Light x infinity, but it's ok to add things like Riptide, Nourish, Wild Growth, Penance, etc.

James

< Order of the Silver … >

Silvermoon

31. Re: GC - Stop Ignoring Holy Paladins 11/01/2008 06:23:04 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
That was when they could down rank. No running out of mana was based on downranking. Now that you can't downrank, Illumination need to be restored to its intended value.

I've never downranked, and I rarely had mana problems except in ___ hitting the fan situations where I used Holy Light a lot. That said, I do think it could be bumped up a bit more.

Vitreous

< Twelve >

Frostmourne

32. Re: GC - Stop Ignoring Holy Paladins 11/01/2008 06:23:21 PM PDT

I smell a ban coming.

Jesz

< Full Circle >

Sentinels

33. Re: GC - Stop Ignoring Holy Paladins 11/01/2008 06:23:32 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

There was a time not too long ago where Holy paladins just didn't run out of mana. This was not good for the game.

Can still not run out of mana with FoL spam and enough mp/5 giggity! But once holy lights come into picture mana pool goes bye bye reallll realll realllllllll fast.

Q u o t e:

This is a little vague for me to be able to address your concerns. I do think there may be something to the issue that Arena teams want a healer with some offensive capabilities as well, even if that means Mass Dispel.

I'm sure others can answer it better.
But i know my biggest beef in pvp right now is counterspell makes me hit "lifeblood" my herbalism heal on myself and wander around doing NOTHING since everything on my hotbar is now unavailble to me heh. Can't bubble, can't do ..just about anything=/ i understand its all holy spells, and i got the talents to try and make the silences/interrupts last as little as possible..but still it hurts being useless. If bubble was at least not linked to my heals it'd be nice so i could bubble instead of being pillaged by a mage after i got cspelled that'd be great.

Q u o t e:

I have seen an awful lot of paladins who really like Beacon. Since you sound like someone who is active in the community, I would imagine you know this, so it surprises me you would state that Beacon is horrible as if it were an accepted fact. You're at least going to have to offer some more evidence.

I love beacon. <3.
I love it very very very very very much.
ONLY complaint i have on it personally, is 40 yd range. I would really like to see it be bigger so it could cover an entire raid easily. And maybe have it not be disspellable>.<

Q u o t e:

Before we buffed Pure, I think it was underpowered. We hesitated because we saw some player calculations that it could have been decent even in its own form. Now in its new form, we feel like it is pretty potent. If it has a disadvantage, it's that it might invalidate some of the earlier Holy talents.

<3, i had a pure mp/5 set before the patch hit, with judgement of the pure i tossed pure haste gems and picked up some haste gear just to go with this talent, i love it, thanks again!

Q u o t e:

Part of the reason we did this was because a complaint we heard from Holy paladins was they wanted more buttons to push than just FoL and HL. Judging seemed like a natural fit since it was already part of the paladin repetoire. This perplexes me a little since you then ask for new healing spells down below. Perhaps you or someone else could elaborate? (Having 40 yard ranged Judgements is pretty nice too.)

<3 this again. JoL is a great healing spell for the melee and being able to use it at my max heal range is just amazing. Although personal input it would be neat since it is healing people, if holy tree had a talent to increase the effectiveness of JoL.

Q u o t e:

But we did make some major changes to specs like the Prot warrior and Shadow priest. If there are enough Holy paladins who think the spec is fundamentally broken and not fun, then that's something on which we'd like to see more discussion from you guys. Just remember not everyone automatically agrees with you. :)

Keke.

Lamn

< Crucial >

Kalecgos

34. Re: GC - Stop Ignoring Holy Paladins 11/01/2008 06:24:00 PM PDT

I wanted to respond to your point about the offensive abilities of a Holy Paladin in arenas compared to other healers, as I do think there is a real problem there. I used to be holy in arena, way back in the day, and I thought it sucked. But it was basically because whenever we found ourselves in an advantageous position, my Paladin couldn't really do anything to "lean into" the other team, like otehr healers could. I could use DF+Holy Shock to crit some damage, and then Judge, and if my HoJ wasn't used defensively (low liklihood) I could pile that on, but it just seemed that if I wasn't needed to heal, I wasn't useful. Also, if I DF+Holy Shocked, well, I'm without one for 2 min, and the other for 15 seconds. It was a poor tradeoff unless the kill was assured.

You've made steps to improve that, but other healers are able to, as I say "lean into" the other team when they find themselves in an advantageous position. Priests have mass dispell, but they also have mana burn, and that can wreck teams. They have SW:P which can help keep people out of stealth, or from drinking. Druids had feral charge, a cyclone, instant moonfire, bash, so they were VERY offensive healers (which I always felt was their true strength, not lifebloom.) Shamans had heroism, windfury totem, chain lightning, lightning bolt, EARTH SHOCK OMG, and things like earthbind totem.

On paper, that list may not be long, but those things gave all other healer classes more versatility and boosted a team's strength way more than a Paladin. There are two tools that really stick out to me as awesome from a Paladin: Hand of Freedom and Hand of Protection. But those are both tools to help your teammate, and not directly hurt your opponent. Maybe that's the flavor of Paladins, but the other healers all have a much greater ability to take advantage of situations and help finish off the other team. Dreamstate Druid was a popular spec last season because of this. Priest + druid + warrior/hunter/rogue was popular directly because of this stuff.

That's why Paladins suffered imo. When you take a Paladin, you are taking a healer, period. When you take another healer, you are taking a healer + bonuses. That's where I think holy suffers the most. Fixing that would do a LOT for the class.

EDIT: I know you don't want us to say "this class sucks cuz that class is better!" I hope I'm not doing that on this post, it's not the point. I'm really just trying to point out where I felt our weakness was in general terms, and how it's a factor of offensive versus defensive utility and it's actual in-game value. TL;DR - Holy would benefit greatly from more offensive utility to put pressure on the opposing team when you are able to produce a situation where you can take advantage of these abilities.

[ Post edited by Lamn ]

Madeve

< Forgotten Realms >

Crushridge

35. Re: GC - Stop Ignoring Holy Paladins 11/01/2008 06:25:58 PM PDT

Thanks for replying GC :D

I was about to respond but i think Kelann above has done a good enough job for me.

Jesz

< Full Circle >

Sentinels

39. Re: GC - Stop Ignoring Holy Paladins 11/01/2008 06:47:01 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

I really can't speak for shamans but that seems tremendously unfair for Paladins and Shamans, it really is a train of thought that should be changed.

Can't speak for paladins either since some of us enjoy it=p

Forum > CLASS ROLES > HEALING