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  • 180. Re: Hunter Class - ARENA - PVP - WOTLK - READ   11/14/2008 06:04:56 PM PST
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camo is against the direction they want to go for the hunter class, I have faith Blizz will make things better next patch, but lets try and think of some suggestions or helpful comments? Camo was against the dev's gut, but personally it made sense to me, I figured hunters, stalk their prey, stealth seems to go with this. Does anyone know what the dev's gut does say, have they ever stated the direction that they do want to go with the class?
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  • 181. Re: Hunter Class - ARENA - PVP - WOTLK - READ   11/14/2008 08:12:48 PM PST
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GC feels that he should reply to troll posts for 100% avoid posts like this that actually point out the issues with the class.

He calls this "theorycrafting" and also, if i recall, he said they had amazing "rogue theorycrafters" that helped them with rogue pvp design.

Look at rogues now, look at hunters...big difference?

Hunters again, had none of their issues fixed because we "theorycraft" and *more excuses here*

Rogues, over 20% rep pop in arenas, have amazing theorycrafters that clearly GC listens to, and they even get another OP 100% anti-hunter ability *DIsmantle* to go with their new 20yard disarm / blind / sap / CloS / Vanish / Sprint / Evasion / Crippling poision spam....

I love it GC, just love it.
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  • 182. Re: Hunter Class - ARENA - PVP - WOTLK - READ   11/14/2008 08:22:12 PM PST
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Q u o t e:
GC feels that he should reply to troll posts for 100% avoid posts like this that actually point out the issues with the class.

He calls this "theorycrafting" and also, if i recall, he said they had amazing "rogue theorycrafters" that helped them with rogue pvp design.

Look at rogues now, look at hunters...big difference?

Hunters again, had none of their issues fixed because we "theorycraft" and *more excuses here*

Rogues, over 20% rep pop in arenas, have amazing theorycrafters that clearly GC listens to, and they even get another OP 100% anti-hunter ability *DIsmantle* to go with their new 20yard disarm / blind / sap / CloS / Vanish / Sprint / Evasion / Crippling poision spam....

I love it GC, just love it.





You know, we've all been yelling at GC this whole time(Me included), but I have the feeling he is more the guy that drew the short straw at some meeting. I wouldn't want to have the job of reporting nerfs, or moderating this thread at all. Getting called out for what I post in, and what I say every time I post, no matter what thread would drive me absolutely nuts. (Yes, I'm guilty of this)
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  • 183. Re: Hunter Class - ARENA - PVP - WOTLK - GC!   11/14/2008 09:26:00 PM PST
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I like the idea of Autoshooting on the run, it fixes a bunch of problems


you get my support if you want nasty Viper Sting nerfed :)
you said yourself you dont want to be a drain combo... so... yeah...




[to the ground baby]
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  • 184. Re: Hunter Class - ARENA - PVP - WOTLK - GC!   11/14/2008 10:26:16 PM PST
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Wow, there has been ten pages of posts and not one Blizzard employee, I was banned for 10 months but I still remember back in last year's December and January, rogues, warriors, mages, and if any paladin came near me they would run, and now I try a little PVP, even some raids, getting out dps'd by about 15% by two-handed dual wielding warriors and shadow priests amazing damage. Since the new talents patch and up to now every single other class has been tremendously super buffed up, and what did we get? the ability to jump... seriously does this seem fair to any developer that did this? were you all laughing in the room? When I PvP now I might as well just give up unless I have a big group of other classes near me, but in an arena a mage can 3 shot me in about six seconds with arcane barrage, a paladin kills me before hammer of justice runs out and if I trinket, he can just bubble and then kill me, a warrior kills me in about five to ten seconds, a rogue can just cloak from everything and use the ever so skillful shadow dance, I'm probably just going to re-roll another class since its so clear that no one cares about this thread at all or any other hunter threads, guess its finally time to roll rogue... /sigh and I have around 200 resilience in 7 pieces of season two equivalent gear. Seriously why can't we shoot point blank? Have any of you ever seen the news or watched a movie? Or, do any of you know anything about guns? Why not do this, for each weapon have it do something different, as in a bow, since a point blank shot will most likely bounce off anyone with any armor, make it have more range? or have a chance to put a bleed DoT on the target, because I'm sure if you got shot by an arrow you would bleed. And for a crossbow give them all faster reload times, so they fire faster? And for guns thats easy, if we are in melee range then guns do 10% more damage maybe?

[ Post edited by Keenan ]

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  • 185. Re: Hunter Class - ARENA - PVP - WOTLK - GC!   11/15/2008 09:52:18 AM PST
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uppeeeeercut!
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  • 186. Re: Hunter Class - ARENA - PVP - WOTLK - GC!   11/15/2008 12:10:37 PM PST
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1) change guild
2) roll rogue/mage/warrior/druid/warlock/paladin/death knight
3) you get many happiness
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  • Doomhammer
  • 187. Re: Hunter Class - ARENA - PVP - WOTLK - GC!   11/15/2008 10:39:56 PM PST
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Q u o t e:
1) change guild
2) roll rogue/mage/warrior/druid/warlock/paladin/death knight
3) you get many happiness


This is Tahma.

I've already started a DK because GC *and blizzard* fail to fix the class, i'm tired of "wait and see" excuses and lack of action towards a really broken class.

My hunter sits, full s3/s4 at level 71.5 and he shall stay there.

Thank you blizzard for ruining my first class, the one i've had for over 4 years, my very first toon.

Cheers!

edit: oh and my DK is level 61 avatar is not updated.

[ Post edited by Serana ]

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  • 189. Re: Hunter Class - ARENA - PVP - WOTLK - READ   11/15/2008 10:59:18 PM PST
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Q u o t e:
GC feels that he should reply to troll posts for 100% avoid posts like this that actually point out the issues with the class.

He calls this "theorycrafting" and also, if i recall, he said they had amazing "rogue theorycrafters" that helped them with rogue pvp design.

Look at rogues now, look at hunters...big difference?

Hunters again, had none of their issues fixed because we "theorycraft" and *more excuses here*

Rogues, over 20% rep pop in arenas, have amazing theorycrafters that clearly GC listens to, and they even get another OP 100% anti-hunter ability *DIsmantle* to go with their new 20yard disarm / blind / sap / CloS / Vanish / Sprint / Evasion / Crippling poision spam....

I love it GC, just love it.


It is intentional. Has to be. This will be ignored as it has for 4 seasons. Maybe we'll even get some uglier armor to boot...
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  • 190. Re: Hunter Class - ARENA - PVP - WOTLK - GC!   11/17/2008 10:27:21 AM PST
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Why do you think Blizz came out with a new class that starts at level 55?

Since they couldn't figure out how to fix the broken class, they provided an easy reroll.
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  • Smolderthorn
  • 191. Re: Hunter Class - ARENA - PVP - WOTLK - GC!   11/17/2008 10:54:45 AM PST
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Q u o t e:
1) change guild
2) roll rogue/mage/warrior/druid/warlock/paladin/death knight
3) you get many happiness


What a coincidence, that was in my Fortune Cookie at lunch. Oh, and my lucky number is e.
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  • 192. Re: Hunter Class - ARENA - PVP - WOTLK - READ   11/17/2008 12:19:05 PM PST
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Thanks for confirming my reason to reroll and stop playing my hunter. I see blizzard still hasn't a clue about making hunters anything other than the default first "ez-kill burst down" target in arenas.

I play priest and mage now, both of which are WAY more durable than the fragile hunter in PvP. if a hunter gets a row of DOTs on them it's game over, which is pretty weak. but no, they can't give them cloak of shadows or anything, sorry that would make you all too much like rogues! I like how blizzard uses that excuse to avoid doing things that would make sense yet ignores it when they want to.

I hope the day comes back that I feel like playing my hunter again, but for now they will sit at 70 until such time as blizzard unretards them.
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  • 193. Re: Hunter Class - ARENA - PVP - WOTLK - READ   11/17/2008 02:32:17 PM PST
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Either blizzard is being lazy or to busy replying to rogue posts about only having 30 second stun locks rather then 40 seconds.

- I dont mean to offend blizzard at all, but I dont understand why they completly ignore us and give all their attention to the classes that are fine or OP. As it stands any other class just has to make one thread and it seems the class will get a change. Hunters on the other hand have been waiting for years and we have only gotten nerfed from bad to worse.

- If your not going to buff us for pvp at all, just tell us so we can reroll rather then screwing around with us and telling us things will change by waiting after season 5 to put disengage from a 20 second to a 19 second CD and tell us "we'll have to wait and see how the change in disengage will affect arena before making any other "huge" changes"...

[ Post edited by Speedydeath ]

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Ghostcrawler
Blizzard Poster
  • 194. Re: Hunter Class - ARENA - PVP - WOTLK - READ   11/17/2008 03:33:37 PM PST
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I'm not sure what kind of response you're looking for. Tahma makes some well-thought-out points and from there the thread quickly deteriorates into rerolling plans or conspiracy theories.

I sometimes respond to shorter questions or points because they just take less time to respond to than many lists of issues. I'll try to quickly address a few of Tahma's original points though.


Q u o t e:
Hunter Survivability

As it stands, cloth mages, warlocks and priests can live better than us in arena, and that’s sad. Your excuse to this has always been we wear mail, yet people wearing cloth or leather have way better surv than hunters. Deterrence needs to be put on a much lower cool down, try 2 minutes, and also work against magic. Lev had a great post about letting Deterrence reduce chance on hit by magic/physical by 50% for 10 seconds, that’s a great idea. It does not require us to have our faces to them, it helps us VS magic and is more useful than what we have now.


We think survival against magic is a legit concern, and unfortunately gets overshadowed by (some) hunters concerns versus melee. We are discussing changing Deterrence.


Q u o t e:
Aspect Of The Beast

I think its quiet useless to add a melee buff to this aspect *or to the class in general*, we have enough key bindings ( more than any other class in this game ) on an already difficult class for arena. Make it SIMPLE GC, not complex. AotD = melee+range aspect and AotV = regain mana. The end. AoTD should also benefit from the 10% melee buff. Do not gimp out AotD’s AP boost or dodge boost, leave them as they’re now on beta and simply add 10% melee buff to it. Not sure if this will make it to WoTLK Live since I hear it was taken out of the game. Hunters don't need melee buff anyways, we need ways to get OUT of melee!


We're not sure what we're going to do with Beast, but as you said, for now we basically consider the choice at 80 to be Dragonhawk vs. Viper.


Q u o t e:
Dismantle

I would like to hear from you GC what your idea was behind giving rogues this ability. You’ve already nerfed every single ability we had vs a rogue.


I think discussion of this one would end up taking over the whole thread. Bottom line is we wanted to give rogues a cool new ability. Many of their new abilities for LK were very situational (though honestly this one is too).


Q u o t e:
Disengage

The leap you take is not nearly enough to allow you to recover from the snare spam and have a chance to do anything. As i've seen so far, when you leap back, you're snared, and still can't move fast enough, you simply get blinked into, interceped, shadowstepped, and are back to where you started, being in melee range for another 30 seconds...Add Masterscall into Disengage and remove the pet need, making it give us 4 seconds of immunity while we leap back so we can get away and stand a chance.


As I have explained before, the slow leap that occurs when snared is a bug. It shouldn't remove the snare, but the leap itself should not be slow.


Q u o t e:
Unfinished Survival Tree

This simply is not acceptable, simple as that, their abilities need to be finished so they we can see what we have, and can discuss *or try to discuss* with you the issues with it, not after you release the game, then make hunters wait 7 months for you to "patch" us with the ability, this will simply drag for too long and should never happen. Many hunters are unhappy about this, as am I. Finish our class, focus on it more so than others, I don't think they need help, except for shamans, the rest are FINE the way they are and have got tons of amazing abilties to make them even better.


This issue is misunderstood a lot. In our minds *nothing* is finished. We always believe we can improve on every aspect of the game some more. If we really thought something was unfinished it, we wouldn't ship it. I hope players don't use our willingness to talk candidly about our future plans or things we'd like to change as ammo that we would ship something unfinished, or you'll just find less of this talk in the future. There is more we want to do with Survival, but that isn't the same thing as somehow giving you a half-baked tree.

[ Post edited by Ghostcrawler ]

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Ghostcrawler
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  • 195. Re: Hunter Class - ARENA - PVP - WOTLK - READ   11/17/2008 03:33:49 PM PST
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Q u o t e:
Freezing Arrow

I really don't know one hunter who PVP's who likes how this ability works. When compared to other levle 80 abilities, this one is seriously lacking. You're making way too complex of a mechanic for something that should be so simple. Remember, SIMPLE, remove arm timer from it, and make it shootable to any target you target, not shoot into the ground, and hope someone is dumb enough to not see the entire animation of your cast + see the trap on the ground and still run over it. Our CC is already enouhg of a joke as it stands, on LONG 30 second CD, don't make this ability a joke too.


Freezing Arrow is a way to remotely deploy traps. It is not intended to be an unavoidable, instant cast, long range, instant effect, 10 sec crowd control that you can reapply every 30 sec. I can understand why you or any class would want an ability that reliably and unpreventably takes a player out for 33% of their time though. :)


Q u o t e:
Traps and Damage

Our traps really need to go back to how they were, they should have a chance to break on damage, not break on any damage. I don't care if you can't figure out how to fix pet AI, we'll simply make a macro to call our pets off and put them on passive when we throw a trap. Revert this back to how it was. Even tho IMO you should really, with all the wealth you have as a company, be able to fix a simple pet AI to not attack frozen targets, not 1 year from now, but before we hit 80.


Sorry, but we care. WoW is a game with 11 million subscribers and we have to be very careful when making changes for the most hardcore players that have the potential to confuse so many more casual gamers. By their very nature, these players aren't as active on forums etc. to even understand the change and certainly aren't making macros to call off fheir pets. In their minds, traps would suddenly go from something that worked (because Fluffy wouldn't break them) to something that didn't. We still plan on implementing them the way that you want, but it will just take a little more time.


Q u o t e:
EDIT: Adding to the recent post on GC calling our pleas for change and our issues "theorycrafting" Are you serious? PLEASE! Tell me the difference between a hunter at 70 and one at 80? FREEZING ARROW? Dodge % being the same as it was before you nerfed us at 70 and not scaling up like it should of to 80? Will any of the issues above go away with leveling to 80? Honestly?


I understand your point, but we still are always going to be very skeptical of players who claim that they are able to see into the future. I have acknowledged that hunters were way too underpowered in Arenas for far too long. We don't want to see that happen again. We made some changes to try and address that. I understand they are not the changes you wanted or would have made if our roles were reversed. :)

To name just a few examples, we think the hunter mana situation is in much better shape now, we think your base attacks are not so dependent on shot rotation mods or macros, and we think Disengage is a button worth pushing. We tried some Arena maps with fewer LOS-blocking elements and no safe starting rooms. We gave pets some cool abilities like Roar of Sacrifice and decent crowd control.

I know that the rest of this thread will be filled with counterarguments for why these are terrible ideas or won't work for whatever reason. That is the way these things go, where you need to argue from your point of view. So ultimately, it is probably best if I just say we want hunters to be good in Arenas and are willing to make changes that perhaps we weren't willing to make before to get to that point.

P.S. I have no problem with theorycrafting in general. It's not a dirty word. I just always try to remind players that just because you see a ranked order of what dps every spec can do generated by someone's spreadsheet (even if it was a very good spreadsheet) does not mean that will match reality.
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  • Smolderthorn
  • 196. Re: Hunter Class - ARENA - PVP - WOTLK - READ   11/17/2008 03:46:43 PM PST
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Q u o t e:

I think discussion of this one would end up taking over the whole thread. Bottom line is we wanted to give rogues a cool new ability. Many of their new abilities for LK were very situational (though honestly this one is too).


The situation that make Dismantle situational: Your enemy has a melee weapon.

Not to be a complete downer, cause actually just wanted to post saying thanks for the in-depth reply that you said you would give us. Its true, the mana issues seem to be fixed, and a lot of the new abilities are pretty cool. Im just hesitant to brush off the opinions of Beta hunters as much as has been happening. I mean, I know its hard to get definite answers from something small like that, but ball-parks are always good. Isnt that what Betas are for?
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Ghostcrawler
Blizzard Poster
  • 197. Re: Hunter Class - ARENA - PVP - WOTLK - READ   11/17/2008 03:51:39 PM PST
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Q u o t e:
Im just hesitant to brush off the opinions of Beta hunters as much as has been happening. I mean, I know its hard to get definite answers from something small like that, but ball-parks are always good. Isnt that what Betas are for?


We don't at all brush off the opinions of beta hunters, or good or knowledgeable hunters in general. I want to make that very clear. I didn't intend at all for my responses to be interpreted as QQ MOAR. We discuss these issues quite a bit. I replied to a couple of hunter posts today because I had at least two discussions at work where a fellow designer said almost verbatim "Hey, did you read that PvP hunter thread? I thought they made some good points."

You should never interpret the lack of a blue response such as "Good idea -- we'll get that in right away," to mean you're being blown off.
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Gaj
  • Whisperwind
  • 198. Re: Hunter Class - ARENA - PVP - WOTLK - READ   11/17/2008 03:57:45 PM PST
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Q u o t e:

Freezing Arrow is a way to remotely deploy traps. It is not intended to be an unavoidable, instant cast, long range, instant effect, 10 sec crowd control that you can reapply every 30 sec. I can understand why you or any class would want an ability that reliably and unpreventably takes a player out for 33% of their time though. :)


Freezing Arrow is so incredibly underwhelming and not something to look forward to at 80. When PvE Hunters heard about MD, we COULDN'T WAIT to get to 70. We know Blizz can do better for our last ability, this is why we are so upset. We already have freezing trap and we use it well (you do know that right?) We don't want something that is worse.

Show me one thing in this game that doesn't move and i'll show you a good use for Freezing Arrow.

Again, why do we get something at 80 that we got at 20?
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  • Smolderthorn
  • 199. Re: Hunter Class - ARENA - PVP - WOTLK - READ   11/17/2008 04:02:41 PM PST
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Q u o t e:


We don't at all brush off the opinions of beta hunters, or good or knowledgeable hunters in general. I want to make that very clear. I didn't intend at all for my responses to be interpreted as QQ MOAR. We discuss these issues quite a bit. I replied to a couple of hunter posts today because I had at least two discussions at work where a fellow designer said almost verbatim "Hey, did you read that PvP hunter thread? I thought they made some good points."

You should never interpret the lack of a blue response such as "Good idea -- we'll get that in right away," to mean you're being blown off.


It wasnt necessarily their specific ideas or 'implement this' that we wanted an answer to. Its more like general concerns that we were still not up to par with other classes. Id rather hear "Beta hunters seemed to generally be struggling with 'X' and were looking into 'Y' to help address that" as opposed to some persons idea of auto-shots on the run getting a "Good idea -- we'll get that in right away"
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