It's now less than two weeks until Wrath of the Lich King hits and I realize that while the game has gone gold you guys are working vicariously until the day of with some patches for us to get those last minute changes going in. I applaud the entire Blizzard development team for the effort and energy put into this game.

But with that in mind, I have a questions about the rogue class. I don't want to come off as a QQer or someone who is just asking for flat out buffs for no reason, but I would like to present (what I consider IMO) logical and objective questions concerning the state of the rogue class after playing in Beta and 3.0 on Live.

1) Are our 51 point talents done until WotLK goes live?

- Hunger For Blood is a very lackluster PVP talent that very few rogues go for and for PVE all it does is serve as another button we need to throw into our rotation. While the 9% damage is great, it feels like the new Rampage and it's not really fun because all it does is create something for us to push before every encounter and add in the GCD to press this button to refresh it.

- Killing Spree is great but many rogues complain that since it doesn't return us to the original target it can actually be a DPS loss when used.

- Shadow Dance is still pretty much a headache to deal with. I know you removed the cooldown aspect on it but is that really enough? When Sap can't be used if the target is in combat, we're left with Cheap Shot, Ambush and Garrote. I don't think anyone fears those three abilities being used in rapid succession as much as say, a Warrior with Bladestorm or Titan's Grip.

2) Does the development team think that Rogue mobility is fine right now?

- Hunger For Blood's PVP viability was completely removed so Mutilate has to rely on Vanish to break snares and Fleet Footed doesn't really help when we're being kited around so easily by just about every ranged or caster class that exists in the game.

- Shadowstep's viability was nerfed with 3.0, but for what reason? We were never given a reason or justification for the removal of using this ability while rooted. I don't think I'm exaggerating when I say that our 41 point talent is vastly inferior to a Warrior's Intercept which is trainable or a Feral Druid's Charge, which is only a 21 point ability.

- Sprint is an old, outdated ability that has no place in modern WoW. Ask Rogues when they use this ability effectively and you'll get some ridiculous answers. If you're not Combat, you need to wait while you're not snared to use it, and if you are Combat, you need to pray that someone else isn't going to apply a snare to you because they effectively negated our 3 minute cooldown, putting us right back at square one when it comes to catching out target. To make matters worse, you change the MAJOR glyph of it to increase the speed but reduce the duration. Nobody needs that long of a sprint, outside of Warsong Gulch games.

3) On Beta and on Live, many Rogues feel that Stealth is very weak compared to what it was before 3.0, as well as enemies targeting us while Vanished. Is there a bug with stealth again?

4) Is Relentless Strikes going to remain as it is currently? This change is still not sitting well with a large number of rogues.

5) I understand that the development team didn't want tanks to rely on avoidance as they have in the past but the recent change to the Agility : Dodge ratio has left rogues with very little dodge and at 80 we're only seeing about 15%. Seeing as how this is our primary defense against melee, isn't that a bit weak? Add to that fact that Hunters, a ranged class that wears mail armor, will get more dodge with their new melee Aspect, that just doesn't seem right. Can this be changed for rogues or other compensations for physical damage avoidance/reduction?

6) Hemorrhage is not an ability that is not supposed to replace Sinister Strike but it's not useful as it is currently and the Subtlety tree as a whole could use some work. Why does Devastate replace Sunder Armor for Warriors?


If these questions could be answered or even addressed with a simple yes/no/maybe, I would greatly appreciate it. I have played this character for 3 years now and have played the rogue class through the good times and the rough times.

However have to think about which character of mine I want to level first and I would like to make an educated decision based upon all of the ones I have available to me so far it seems that the rogue class will have to suffer again like in The Burning Crusade, where it took basically a year to get us tuned to a place where the class community was content with.

Even if you have to tell us news we don't want to hear, I think a lot of us would greatly appreciate the communication here.

P.S. Please don't nerf us into the ground. :)

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Q u o t e:
- Shadowstep's viability was nerfed with 3.0, but for what reason? We were never given a reason or justification for the removal of using this ability while rooted. I don't think I'm exaggerating when I say that our 41 point talent is vastly inferior to a Warrior's Intercept which is trainable or a Feral Druid's Charge, which is only a 21 point ability.

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I understand you can do shadowstep @ any range?
Intercept you cant.

tyvm qq more about 1 of the best pvp classes in the game
go use some dismantle you n00b.

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Q u o t e:


I understand you can do shadowstep @ any range?
Intercept you cant.

tyvm qq more about 1 of the best pvp classes in the game
go use some dismantle you n00b.

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Sounds to me like your one of those Warriors that get eaten alive by rogues. Dont be bitter, just L2P scrub.


Intercept 15sec cd'
Shs 30sec.
and no its not any range moron.

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Q u o t e:


I understand you can do shadowstep @ any range?
Intercept you cant.

tyvm qq more about 1 of the best pvp classes in the game
go use some dismantle you n00b.

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Hey "n00b" this is my Warrior alternate character. I think I can accurately and legitimately evaluate a comparison between Shadowstep and Intercept. I can guarantee you that there would be riots on not only the Warrior forums but every other class forums if tomorrow Rogues got Intercept trainable and had two talents to reduce the cooldown to 20 seconds, not even taking into account the 4 piece Gladiator gear bonus since I'm sure the 10 energy would be preferred, and Warriors got Intercept taken away and instead had Shadowstep become their 41 point talent in the Arms tree (or Fury or Protection, take your pick).

Also, I can see from your Armory that you shouldn't be calling anyone else a "n00b". But you do get a shred of respect from me for posting on a level 70 characters.

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Q u o t e:


I understand you can do shadowstep @ any range?
Intercept you cant.

tyvm qq more about 1 of the best pvp classes in the game
go use some dismantle you n00b.

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I love how you say that rogues can shadowstep from any range, and then go on to call someone else a noob.

How about the fun factor?

Sub is an amazingly boring tree... with deep talents rewarding dagger users. I understand you wanted to make daggers more viable, but why make picking other weapons a detriment?

Is playing as a rogue really that bad? Honestly I wouldn't think there would be much to complain about given the success of the class through most of this game.

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Q u o t e:
How about the fun factor?

Sub is an amazingly boring tree... with deep talents rewarding dagger users. I understand you wanted to make daggers more viable, but why make picking other weapons a detriment?

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Same reason I don't use a 2h on my Shaman. Trees for the more martial specs are usually themed around a type of combat.

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Q u o t e:
Is playing as a rogue really that bad? Honestly I wouldn't think there would be much to complain about given the success of the class through most of this game.

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I am not a min/max player.
I dont concern myself with topping dmg charts.
I dont care if im not ranked 2000 in lolarenas.

What I care about is playability of the class. It seems like so much attention was payed into making rogues a spreadsheet class, that they forgot to ask themselves, 'hey will this be fun?'

Our 51 point talents are amazingly lackluster. Assasination is a 30 sec dps timer, and sub is hotkey nightmare. ( LOL GUYS I CAN DO 3 AMBUSHES IN A ROW)

If I do stop playing, it wont be because i am no longer a pvp god... it will because the class is not fun.

What made Hemo replace SS for a Sub Hemo build was the fact that it was roughly the same Energy cost and used nothing but weapon damage as a scalar with no weapon type reqs.

Since the weapon scalar was low, it favored using maces or swords over daggers. This is an oddity because a good bit of the tree at the time was focused on knives.

Since you had talents that buffed Hemo instead of SS, Hemo then did more damage than your SS even before you get to the debuff.


The debuff was also entirely insignificant due to the low amount of additional damage and the low amount of charges.



You can say 'it wasn't meant to', but the reality was, it did.

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Q u o t e:
Our 51 point talents are amazingly lackluster. Assasination is a 30 sec dps timer, and sub is hotkey nightmare. ( LOL GUYS I CAN DO 3 AMBUSHES IN A ROW)

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Chaos Bolt? Dispersion? Loling Bomb? Beast Mastery? Chimera Shot? Berserk? Unholy Blight?

Every class has 51 pointers they complain about and unilaterally declaring yours to be the most boring and lacklustre isn't that great an argument when you got dismantle for free.

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Q u o t e:


I am not a min/max player.
I dont concern myself with topping dmg charts.
I dont care if im not ranked 2000 in lolarenas.

What I care about is playability of the class. It seems like so much attention was payed into making rogues a spreadsheet class, that they forgot to ask themselves, 'hey will this be fun?'

Our 51 point talents are amazingly lackluster. Assasination is a 30 sec dps timer, and sub is hotkey nightmare. ( LOL GUYS I CAN DO 3 AMBUSHES IN A ROW)

If I do stop playing, it wont be because i am no longer a pvp god... it will because the class is not fun.

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My comment was directed at the OP but I can understand your points. I play Enh Shaman and Shadowpriest, so there isn't the enjoyment or success that I'd like to see in pvp without me speccing for healing.

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Q u o t e:
Is playing as a rogue really that bad? Honestly I wouldn't think there would be much to complain about given the success of the class through most of this game.

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i had a huge post written up replying to GC but the forum decided to eat it so i'll reply to this.

rogues at 80 are looking exactly like they were at the beginning of BC if not worse. we aren't complaining about 70, this is about level 80 and rogues are somewhat subpar.

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Q u o t e:

Chaos Bolt? Dispersion? Loling Bomb? Beast Mastery? Chimera Shot? Berserk? Unholy Blight?

Every class has 51 pointers they complain about and unilaterally declaring yours to be the most boring and lacklustre isn't that great an argument when you got dismantle for free.

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Chimera Shot is awesome.

Do me a favor. Show me the ONE class that has 3... yes THREE... 51 point talents that are not desirable.

Thanks

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Q u o t e:
The tree was balanced around the original, much more powerful (and in retrospect TOO powerful) Hunger for Blood. We think it is a little lackluster in PvP and are talking about ways to juice it without overhauling the tree. We can overhaul the tree if that's what it takes, but it will just take that much longer and Assassination seems to be okay in PvP and PvE for the moment.

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It went from removing either all or magic effects to bleed effects in the end, correct? Honestly, I'm not all that concerned about my 51 pt Luffa as I am my 30 second dps timer that has an incredibly harsh punishment if it ever drops in combat. I really hope that we see a change in stack size and/or duration in the near future with this one.

EDIT:

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Q u o t e:
2) Relentless strikes could be better if it returned 1/2/3/4/5 energy per combo point, rather than base it off RNG. It certaintly would help Mutilate in PvE, as we use 4 point finishers a lot of the time, and when we don't get the 25 energy back, we're waiting 2-3 seconds longer to use our next ability.

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That is the most wonderful idea I've heard all night about anything. Where do I sign up?

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Q u o t e:



Chimera Shot is awesome.

Do me a favor. Show me the ONE class that has 3... yes THREE... 51 point talents that are not desirable.

Thanks

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Eh, it's a mana hog.

And more unilateral declarations of neglect aren't making the point that Rogues need help in any way. We've got no real level 80 data to go off of and only skewed and confused level 70 data. Taken from either of those pools Rogues are not in a bad spot comparatively. Ele, Holy and non-SL warlocks all need a look at before Rogues. Not saying there shouldn't be some attention, but squeaky wheel gets the oil, eh?

Also, maybe the 51 pointers are lacklustre because you don't need awesome 51-pointers? Maybe after CloS and Dismantle they thought your bag of tricks was a bit too deep?