World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Why Hybrid = Pure?

Vistouf

Moon Guard

0. @GC : Why Hybrid = Pure? 10/30/2008 09:37:02 PM PDT

For a while, I had in mind that there were "pure" classes that were only brining damage to the raids and hybrid/support classes that were there to boost their damage.

But it seems that at lvl 80 the pure and the hybrids will do the same (or nearly) DPS and I would like to know why the devs chose that? Do you think the 5% margin is fair? Do you plan on giving more utility to the current pure classes?

Rated [M] for Moozerella.
I'm a WoW addict.

Callofsatan

Blackhand

1. Re: @GC : Why Hybrid = Pure? 10/30/2008 09:40:40 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
For a while, I had in mind that there were "pure" classes that were only brining damage to the raids and hybrid/support classes that were there to boost their damage.

But it seems that at lvl 80 the pure and the hybrids will do the same (or nearly) DPS and I would like to know why the devs chose that? Do you think the 5% margin is fair? Do you plan on giving more utility to the current pure classes?

Unless they are making some serious changes. Right now pretty much every pure class besides Warlocks, have routinely beat hybrids by more then 5%, however that is taking into account that they are specced to raid. So really there is no need to add utility to any pure classes dps specs, maybe something to their utility trees, to make them more worthwhile to raid as.

Yeelu

< Veeohlay le Saloap >

Darkspear

2. Re: @GC : Why Hybrid = Pure? 10/30/2008 09:43:16 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

Unless they are making some serious changes. Right now pretty much every pure class besides Warlocks, have routinely beat hybrids by more then 5%, however that is taking into account that they are specced to raid. So really there is no need to add utility to any pure classes dps specs, maybe something to their utility trees, to make them more worthwhile to raid as.

Warlock ftw:) they are getting fix too, but warlock are still QQ'ing. IMO they are fine atm!

TAKE A LOOK ON MY EPIX LEWTZ ~ http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Darkspear&n=Yeelu

Saboruto

< The Silver Guard >

Shadow Council

3. Re: @GC : Why Hybrid = Pure? 10/30/2008 09:48:33 PM PDT

It's all because of player mentality. You don't say "Oh, let's not bring that mage, we can get a moonkin who does 80% of the damage of a mage but has Innervate and battle rez!" When a group is looking for DPS, they're looking ONLY for DPS and they seldom care what else that particular class can bring (CC aside, but that's a separate issue anyway).

Hybrids were always getting left out of content, in large part because we couldn't fulfill our raid function (DPS) to the same degree a "pure" class could. Not only has our damage been increased to make us equally good at fulfilling our role's function, but the "utility" stuff has been spread around. Heck, half the classes in the game right now bring mana regeneration, and even unique stuff like +hit/crit/damage/whatever "auras" have been spread around.

So in essence, it doesn't matter what class you are, it only matters that you're good at your role. If you are, you get to go. If you aren't, you get benched because there's another class out there that can bring everything you can bring. Sure, there's a few things here and there that give classes a bit of uniqueness (battle rez, poisons, temporary pets, etc.), but most of those things can still be closely mimicked by other classes (battle rez is really just pre-wipe insurance, as opposed to soulstones and self rez which are post-wipe insurance, etc.)

Demonstorm

Korgath

5. Re: @GC : Why Hybrid = Pure? 10/30/2008 09:51:38 PM PDT

honestly, with raid composition and everything, everyone in guild didnt care if the dps of a hybrid was lower, like a Enhancement shaman, its like ok his damage is low ... but he brings windfury, heroism, 10 percent Ap, and even cake sometimes for the melee. or even the feral druids fantastico crit and healing from leader of the pack. not to mention boomkins crit, Elementals Amazing totems.

it was like WOW look at them buffs, surely we account the dps boost in our pure dps classes as their own, for speccing such a cool utility spec.

however alot of utilites like our curses no longer stack with abilities, Granted im still going to try to use them, they seem lack luster and no longer unique.

I really hope they just spread the utility around and give each pure dps class something real fantastic, so everyone is happy. but when it comes down to it, if you have good friends in your guild, and your a good player, your going to get a raid spot.

Rosshalde

< Blood Requïem >

Cho'gall

6. Re: @GC : Why Hybrid = Pure? 10/30/2008 09:53:20 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

Warlock ftw:) they are getting fix too, but warlock are still QQ'ing. IMO they are fine atm!

Yup, our ability to kill helboars is a really good indicator of our relative status to other classes in raiding, bgs, and arena.

Saboruto

< The Silver Guard >

Shadow Council

7. Re: @GC : Why Hybrid = Pure? 10/30/2008 09:55:15 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
honestly, with raid composition and everything, everyone in guild didnt care if the dps of a hybrid was lower, like a Enhancement shaman, its like ok his damage is low ... but he brings windfury, heroism, 10 percent Ap, and even cake sometimes for the melee. or even the feral druids fantastico crit and healing from leader of the pack. not to mention boomkins crit, Elementals Amazing totems.

it was like WOW look at them buffs, surely we account the dps boost in our pure dps classes as their own, for speccing such a cool utility spec.

however alot of utilites like our curses no longer stack with abilities, Granted im still going to try to use them, they seem lack luster and no longer unique.

I really hope they just spread the utility around and give each pure dps class something real fantastic, so everyone is happy. but when it comes down to it, if you have good friends in your guild, and your a good player, your going to get a raid spot.

If you use Curse of Elements, it saves me 5 talent points in an already incredibly bloated tree. Trust me, I WANT a warlock along, else my personal damage suffers. And even if I do end up speccing E&M, it just frees you up to use a DIFFERENT curse. We're not fighting for the same raid spot, we synergize very nicely.

Ultimately, everything was spread around to give raids more flexibility. Sure, now you don't HAVE to have a warlock, but neither do you have to have a moonkin. You just have to have one of the two, but both is even nicer for it.

Fingon

< Mountain Men >

Gorefiend

8. Re: @GC : Why Hybrid = Pure? 10/30/2008 10:28:29 PM PDT

The main reason hybrid dps was beefed up considerably was the change to buffs. Most buffs are now raid-wide and do not stack. So if you have a class that gives 10% AP (enhance shaman or marks hunter), and one of them does considerably more damage, why would you bring the other?

Hence most dps specs now do comprable dps. I believe Ghostcrawler said somewhere that buffs used to count as "dps" ie being able to drop windfury totem means you have that designed as part of your dps even though it doesn't help you at all. This is no longer the case meaning buffs are more or less "free dps"

However, as has been said many times, "pure" classes will be 5-10% higher on the damage charts than a hybrid given equal gear and skill.

Ghostcrawler

Blizzard Poster

9. Re: @GC : Why Hybrid = Pure? 10/30/2008 10:35:14 PM PDT

Our logic worked out like this:

1) Buffs are breaking the game. There are many examples you could insert here, but here are a few:
-- Ret paladins can't get into the melee group because of all the buffers in there.
-- Stacking shamans for Bloodlust rotations.
-- Stacking Shadow Priests so mana conservation would be irrelevant.
-- Mages getting shut out of raids, in part because it was better to bring yet another lock to benefit from Curse of Shadows.
2) We decided to consolidate buffs such that similar ones would not stack, but we extended the effects to raid wide.
3) Thus, in a 25-player raid, you need far fewer than 25 players to get the buffs you need, allowing you to fill those remaining slots with who you want.
4) Without the benefits of those buffs, those remaining slots would most likely just go to pure dps classes. Shamans, for example, might go from 5 per raid to 1 (or 1 death knight instead).
5) So we buffed hybrid dps a lot.
6) But we knew at the other extreme that pure dps classes risked getting shut out of raids if hybrids could do their damage.
7) So we made sure the pure classes could still do superior dps given similar skill and gear. We wanted you to risk having lower dps if you brought all hybrids.

We don't go into a lot of detail about how much higher or lower certain classes should be, because we noticed that players respond to this by posting WWS parses that shows their class in the #10 spot and get all bent out of shape about it (and totally ignoring the bit about equal gear or skill).

The net result is that hybrid dps is much higher, but not as high as pure classes. If you are an awesome hybrid player, then you will sometimes top the damage meters depending on your gear, skill and the specific encounter. But you probably won't do it as much as a rogue, mage, warlock or hunter (again depending on their skill).

I know the edge here sometimes seems fuzzy. It is. WoW's combat system is pretty complicated and hard and fast rules can only get you so far. But that is the basic model in very simple terms.

Elmizzt

< Misguided Angels >

Mal'Ganis

10. Re: @GC : Why Hybrid = Pure? 10/30/2008 10:38:11 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
Our logic worked out like this:

1) Buffs are breaking the game. There are many examples you could insert here, but here are a few:
-- Ret paladins can't get into the melee group because of all the buffers in there.
-- Stacking shamans for Bloodlust rotations.
-- Stacking Shadow Priests so mana conservation would be irrelevant.
-- Mages getting shut out of raids, in part because it was better to bring yet another lock to benefit from Curse of Shadows.
2) We decided to consolidate buffs such that similar ones would not stack, but we extended the effects to raid wide.
3) Thus, in a 25-player raid, you need far fewer than 25 players to get the buffs you need, allowing you to fill those remaining slots with who you want.
4) Without the benefits of those buffs, those remaining slots would most likely just go to pure dps classes. Shamans, for example, might go from 5 per raid to 1 (or 1 death knight instead).
5) So we buffed hybrid dps a lot.
6) But we knew at the other extreme that pure dps classes risked getting shut out of raids if hybrids could do their damage.
7) So we made sure the pure classes could still do superior dps given similar skill and gear. We wanted you to risk having lower dps if you brought all hybrids.

We don't go into a lot of detail about how much higher or lower certain classes should be, because we noticed that players respond to this by posting WWS parses that shows their class in the #10 spot and get all bent out of shape about it (and totally ignoring the bit about equal gear or skill).

The net result is that hybrid dps is much higher, but not as high as pure classes. If you are an awesome hybrid player, then you will sometimes top the damage meters depending on your gear, skill and the specific encounter. But you probably won't do it as much as a rogue, mage, warlock or hunter (again depending on their skill).

I know the edge here sometimes seems fuzzy. It is. WoW's combat system is pretty complicated and hard and fast rules can only get you so far. But that is the basic model in very simple terms.

The new mantra of 'bring the player, not the class' seems like it will make for a much more enjoyable raiding experience. I'm confident that you and your team will be watching the numbers, and tweak where it is needed. :)

Bobama

Blood Furnace

11. Re: @GC : Why Hybrid = Pure? 10/30/2008 10:39:37 PM PDT

everytime i hear someone, especially a blue say "equal skill", i laugh. This game takes very little skili.

Saboruto

< The Silver Guard >

Shadow Council

12. Re: @GC : Why Hybrid = Pure? 10/30/2008 10:41:34 PM PDT

Ghostcrawler, I just have SO much respect for you for taking the time to explain Blizzard's reasoning, and I don't envy you your job. Just know that there are many of us who appreciate the effort you're making and the time you take to talk to us.

Maximusrex

< Little Urban Elites >

Draenor

14. Re: @GC : Why Hybrid = Pure? 10/30/2008 10:45:46 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
everytime i hear someone, especially a blue say "equal skill", i laugh. This game takes very little skili.

Yet there are people everyday that prove that they can abysmally fail the skill portion of the game.

It's the end of the World of Warcraft as we know it, and I feel fine!

Ataraxia

Twisting Nether

15. Re: @GC : Why Hybrid = Pure? 10/30/2008 10:50:44 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
everytime i hear someone, especially a blue say "equal skill", i laugh. This game takes very little skili.

You think this is true either because:

1. You have never been in a good raiding guild.
2. You have never been in a horrible raiding guild.

I've been in the second. The first doesnt really exist on my server, but I got as close as I could.
There are players who suck, truly and completely. I've been at 33% of the damage done in Kara before touching the AoE packs, because of arms warriors who used HS over slam and hunters who thought steady shot sucked. I've seen 6 people die on Gruul's first shatter.
Then, I switched guilds, and suddenly nobody died on Gruul. At all. Throughout the whole fight. To shatter or otherwise.
Then I switched guilds, and downed Vashj, and the guild still fell apart before making any real progress on KT.

What makes these guilds different from each other, or the guilds on servers that downed KT 3 months earlier?
Gotta be skill.

I rant.

< Legion of the Rash >

Silver Hand

16. Re: @GC : Why Hybrid = Pure? 10/30/2008 10:53:03 PM PDT

Seriously I think class doesn't matter as long as you have the mental capacity to know that standing in fire = bad.

Juffowup

< Horizon >

Durotan

17. Re: @GC : Why Hybrid = Pure? 10/30/2008 10:55:08 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

Yet there are people everyday that prove that they can abysmally fail the skill portion of the game.

RIP, Ret. Now I know why Arthas rerolled a DK.

Leonoire

< Hemophilia >

Shandris

18. Re: @GC : Why Hybrid = Pure? 10/30/2008 10:55:16 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
Blizzard needs to give mages a heal thats not quite as good as a pure healers.

Like Evocation glyph?

Juffowup

< Horizon >

Durotan

19. Re: @GC : Why Hybrid = Pure? 10/30/2008 10:58:07 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

You think this is true either because:

1. You have never been in a good raiding guild.
2. You have never been in a horrible raiding guild.

I've been in the second. The first doesnt really exist on my server, but I got as close as I could.
There are players who suck, truly and completely. I've been at 33% of the damage done in Kara before touching the AoE packs, because of arms warriors who used HS over slam and hunters who thought steady shot sucked. I've seen 6 people die on Gruul's first shatter.
Then, I switched guilds, and suddenly nobody died on Gruul. At all. Throughout the whole fight. To shatter or otherwise.
Then I switched guilds, and downed Vashj, and the guild still fell apart before making any real progress on KT.

What makes these guilds different from each other, or the guilds on servers that downed KT 3 months earlier?
Gotta be skill.

Yeah, you have to have been in both to really see the difference.

RIP, Ret. Now I know why Arthas rerolled a DK.

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