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Q u o t e:

Mana burns - yes.
Distance closing and interrupts - we are considering giving Ret or paladins in general some new utility to make up for all the nerfs we have made to their damage. It will almost certanly not be MS though. You can find a thread where I recently attempted to explain why we don't want to give out more MS debuffs.
I haven't heard a lot of silence complaints from paladins recently (more than normal I mean). Is this a new problem? Care to elaborate?

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Any kind of an eta on the anti-mana burn ability? We could really use it in WOTLK to avoid getting chain-ganked while leveling.

If we're not getting an MS effect (which every other melee class has), then we're going to need some major cc options to compensate. I'm thinking at least one CS and one snare... Any additional information on where you and the devs are going with this?

Paladins could really use some good news. I know I'm seriously considering rerolling DK after all the chain nerfs... Would really love a reason to stay a paladin...

Lemme guess, the new ability/utility will cost 20% base mana, making it absolutely useless for Ret because we're OOM?

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Q u o t e:
Lemme guess, the new ability/utility will cost 20% base mana, making it absolutely useless for Ret because we're OOM?

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No point being crass. GC already said we're getting an anti-mana burn ability. Combine anti-mana burn with some strong cc and paladins might actually be viable with the dps and burst nerfs.

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Q u o t e:


No point being crass. GC already said we're getting an anti-mana burn ability. Combine anti-mana burn with some strong cc and paladins might actually be viable with the dps and burst nerfs.

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I certainly hope so. I saw a DPS video of a ret paladin doing her rotations and it depressed the living daylights out of me. Not once did the damage exceed 4k damage and with health values going up even further, it makes me wonder if there's any hope for the class.

...another problem is when these supposed buffs are going to come along are when they'll be implemented and if they're actually going to work, since paladins are not on the top of Blizzard's to-do list.

My major problem I had playing my ret paladin these past few arena seasons are the same before 3.0 as they are on live.

The paladins, even the ret arena spec, does not have any kind of counter against being endlessly kited in arena. My rogue is able to dismantle weapons/shields from his counter classes, armored melee DPS; however Paladins against arena competitive priests and warlocks are left playing the match unable to control their character until the paladin is OOM or drained to death. I have no real option, if I trinket I will be feared again due to the fear CD, or if I use my 5 min CD it will get readily dispelled as are most of the Paladin's abilities; all the while not being able to close into melee distance or interrupt the effect.

The entire aspect of CC that is contributed by arena ret paladins, the best pally CC spec available, is completely nullified by the PVP trinket and racials because repent and HOJ are on long (or long for arena combat anyway) CD's. These mechanics are opposite of the successful CC abilities employed by the classes that have been doing well in arena these past few seasons.

In addition, without OP'd DPS, ret paladins do not offer arena impacting abilities found in its arena successful counterparts: paladins are unable to survive, cannot gain distance, have no counter to being chain feared, and does not deliver the mechanics that have made classes/comps successful in arena such as delivering mortal strike. Without these major arena mechanics that successful arena classes have in their arsenal, the ret paladin will be unable to contribute as well as a rogue or warrior.


This is not a plea begging for arena I-win buttons, but a homogenization of arena-impacting abilities across the class so this e-sport follows the trends of the new WOTLK raiding concept ---- where you don't have to take class "X" to fulfill core arena features such as mortal strike.

Questions and Suggestions for you GC:

the changes that cause Avenging Wrath to trigger forbearance basically forces paladins to never be able to use the ability in any pvp situation. to top it off no prot paladin will use it period because they won't be able to use our shield wall. holy will use it in pve and ret will use it only if he's nowhere near the top of the threat list. divine shield is far more useful in every situation. no paladin will use avenging wrath over it.

* is it intended to not be used in pvp whatsoever since you can be dispelled or cc'd for the entire duration?

* is consecration intended to be be in the normal ret rotation? it is/was around 20% of a ret's damage in pve. can our mana regen sustain that rotation without needing every other class holding our hand if so?

* as it seems now ret has to judge wisdom to regen mana, but what about pvp where we might need justice. it is intended to balance our mana regen around judging wisdom while it may hurt us in pvp? it seems to take away from the other judgments way too much. if we had a snare or other pvp tools then it would be different. we are hurting when it comes to getting/staying close to players that use their pvp trinkets and class abilities.

suggestions

1) make it similar to a warrior's recklessness as we take more damage while using it, but make it undispellable. Divine Shield could have either removes avenging wrath, all damage while under the effects of divine shield are reduced by 50% or both.

at the very least take divine protection off of forbearance. it still allows 50% damage to go through and would be very useful for prot. or maybe add to a prot talent that takes forbearance off DP.

2) since we aren't going to be in a group let alone a balanced group at all times. add a % of the damage from crusader strike be returned as damage to the paladin only. i think it was stated that blizzard wanted a secondary ability but just wasn't sure what was needed. i know one reason JoTW was changed because holy paladins were speccing it and would never run out while healing. no holy paladin is going to spec 41 points in ret.

3) make it so we can use divine storm while silenced, it is a physical ability now.

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Q u o t e:


We are going to go ahead and change the mana drains to a percentage of mana so that Ret paladins don't lose so much larger a percentage of their mana than casters with 15K mana.

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Finally, god has answered our Mana Drain prayers.

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Q u o t e:

We are going to go ahead and change the mana drains to a percentage of mana so that Ret paladins don't lose so much larger a percentage of their mana than casters with 15K mana.

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:D
Watch out holy priest, you've got a new bane.

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Q u o t e:
Our eventual plan is to put Divine Shield on a shared 30 sec cooldown with Avenging Wrath. We also plan on changing Divine Shield's attack speed penalty (which isn't really much of a penalty) and have it apply to all damage done while the bubble is up.

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So it sounds like.... Us retribution paladins will no longer be able to "bubble + dps". In other words, the problem that the entire community had with us is gone. Any chance we can get the damage nerfs removed? I mean no we won't be anymore difficult to deal with than a warrior right?!

Thanks for the info GC.

If you do this can we please get either a) some damage back (Divine storm, fix it?) or b) mana/ sustainability (so we can heal our teammates). That is, if you actually do cut damage in half during bubble or something.

Thank you so much for letting us know that if all works out, you more than likely won't be leaving the current lazyman solution (2 min forbearance on everything) as it is. As a prot paladin, that's one of my prayers answered.

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Q u o t e:
Our eventual plan is to put Divine Shield on a shared 30 sec cooldown with Avenging Wrath. We also plan on changing Divine Shield's attack speed penalty (which isn't really much of a penalty) and have it apply to all damage done while the bubble is up.

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THANK YOU GOD

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Q u o t e:
Our eventual plan is to put Divine Shield on a shared 30 sec cooldown with Avenging Wrath. We also plan on changing Divine Shield's attack speed penalty (which isn't really much of a penalty) and have it apply to all damage done while the bubble is up.

Divine Protection would no longer have the attack penalty, but since Prot paladins typically talent out of that penalty, it won't have a big effect on tanking (though obviously that talent would need to do something slightly different).

All of this assumes that preventing AW from being used with DS actually makes the Ret tree a little more balanced. We'll need to monitor that a little bit longer first.

We are going to go ahead and change the mana drains to a percentage of mana so that Ret paladins don't lose so much larger a percentage of their mana than casters with 15K mana.

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Define eventually?

As in, as next week, via hotfix? Seems that's the only way you guys seem to change this class nowadays.

Or maybe, after several months of sub-par preformance, like you did with Crusader Strike?

Also, what about Forbearance? Does this mean that it will eventaully be taken out of the game completely, since it was a stupid mechanic in the first place?

Edit:

And seriously, why does Seal of Vengeance have to be nerfed too?! It was never part of the problem in the first place!!

GC, thank you for starting to deal with the drain-team issue. I hope it all balances out.

Here's a thought for prot paladins. Why not remove the forebearance effect of paly shield wall and instead just put it on a 2min CD? That way protadins can still use wings (protadins are puting up a lot less aggro and really need to be able to use wings) and still have a shield wall (which is obviously essential to tanking). It would only be a minor buff to holy and ret - essentially an anti-ms. dps and burst would remain unaffected. Thoughts?

Thanks again for the update. Any additional information on paladins getting some kind of cc?

I probably seem like a broken record if you've read my other posts, but wouldn't simply having a 20% damage reduction in the bubble fix this? That way if you pop wings, all it does is make you look pretty in the bubble while still giving holy their healing power.

It seems overly complicated to change all that, and the situation is still there where you'll always use Divine Shield first. You'll have a great chance of using AW, but I'm still saying to myself: "Self, there's really no reason you should use AW over Divine Shield. It's too valuable to take a chance."

I'm just confused as to why this isn't going to work. In my mind it seems like a simple solution. Is there something I'm missing?

I agree that a straight damage reduction instead of a swing timer is a good idea though. That was implemented in the days when paladins really were auto attackers. All the instants are what cause the blowups in the shield right now.

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Q u o t e:
Our eventual plan is to put Divine Shield on a shared 30 sec cooldown with Avenging Wrath. We also plan on changing Divine Shield's attack speed penalty (which isn't really much of a penalty) and have it apply to all damage done while the bubble is up.

Divine Protection would no longer have the attack penalty, but since Prot paladins typically talent out of that penalty, it won't have a big effect on tanking (though obviously that talent would need to do something slightly different).

All of this assumes that preventing AW from being used with DS actually makes the Ret tree a little more balanced. We'll need to monitor that a little bit longer first.

We are going to go ahead and change the mana drains to a percentage of mana so that Ret paladins don't lose so much larger a percentage of their mana than casters with 15K mana.

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So you are purposefully overnerfing with the intention of fixing it "eventually"?