World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> ?'s most Paladins are wanting answers to.

Retatron

< Arise >

Medivh

20. Re: ?'s most Paladins are wanting answers to. 11/01/2008 10:54:19 AM PDT

If Paladins as a whole require a bubble to kill anybody, then clearly we are indeed a broken class.

Vargatron - 70 Druid (Lightninghoof)
Lustmordt - 70 Warrior (Lightninghoof)
Keseiya - 70 Rogue (Lightninghoof)
Retatron - 70 Paladin (Medivh)

Nukelear

< What a Terrible Idea >

Thunderlord

21. Re: ?'s most Paladins are wanting answers to. 11/01/2008 06:36:35 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
If Paladins as a whole require a bubble to kill anybody, then clearly we are indeed a broken class.

We require a bubble not to die though, specifically in PvP.

TO THE GROUND BABY!

Ghostcrawler

Blizzard Poster

22. Re: ?'s most Paladins are wanting answers to. 11/01/2008 10:14:50 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
1) Do you really think we'll use AW now other than select PvE encounters?

We understand that AW will be used much, much less than it is now in Arenas. That wasn't the intention, but we felt we needed to counter the standard winged bubble opening move that so many paladins were doing. If this change actually seems to make a difference (because to be honest despite the number of nerfs we've done to Ret, they were still overpowered) than we'll consider other ways of getting the same effect that don't involve Forbearance.

Q u o t e:
2) Why is it that you're so hot to balance out a class that has been a joke for 2+ years for two weeks of playtime when PvE progression and arena rankings are now all but meaningless?

We can't let one spec run around killing everyone just because they were underpowered before. I expect you'd be just as frustrated as other classes if it was Elemental shammies or Feral druids dominating everyone in PvP. Where Ret's history did come into play is we originally tried relatively small nerfs originally (though the paladin community didn't perceive them as such at the time). In retrospect, being gentle there didn't do you guys any favors because then we just had to come back two more times with big nerfs.

Q u o t e:
3) Where were our desperately needed hot fix buffs for the past two years? Is this new insta-balance stance going to swing both ways?

We made a lot of big changes to classes for LK and we need to able to adjust them as needed. I honestly wasn't doing this job for the past two years, so I'm not in a position to comment on why certain decisions were made the way they were. I have faith they were made for good reasons, but I just can't share them with you because I don't know. I will say that the perception around Blizzard was that the Ret paladin situation was very severe. I don't want to understate it. It was considered one of the most egregious balance problems we've had in some time.

Q u o t e:
4) Where were the desperately needed nerfs to certain classes in arena for the past two season?

See above.

Q u o t e:
5) Will problems such as lack of MS debuffs, interrupts, distance closing, and susceptibility to mana burns/silences be addressed?

Mana burns - yes.
Distance closing and interrupts - we are considering giving Ret or paladins in general some new utility to make up for all the nerfs we have made to their damage. It will almost certanly not be MS though. You can find a thread where I recently attempted to explain why we don't want to give out more MS debuffs.
I haven't heard a lot of silence complaints from paladins recently (more than normal I mean). Is this a new problem? Care to elaborate?

Tiberius

< Social Butterflies >

Azgalor

23. Re: ?'s most Paladins are wanting answers to. 11/01/2008 10:21:16 PM PDT

If DS does physical damage why can't we use it when silenced?

Kaitwo

Laughing Skull

24. Re: ?'s most Paladins are wanting answers to. 11/01/2008 10:21:31 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
Why is the paladin class the ONLY class getting hot fixed nerfs without the compensation to make up for it?

Slow got hotfixed to last 10 seconds instead of 15 yesterday. So, that kinda shoots down that overly dramatic argument of yours, doesn't it?

Iliya

Vek'nilash

26. Re: ?'s most Paladins are wanting answers to. 11/01/2008 10:32:43 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

Mana burns - yes.
Distance closing and interrupts - we are considering giving Ret or paladins in general some new utility to make up for all the nerfs we have made to their damage. It will almost certanly not be MS though. You can find a thread where I recently attempted to explain why we don't want to give out more MS debuffs.
I haven't heard a lot of silence complaints from paladins recently (more than normal I mean). Is this a new problem? Care to elaborate?

Glad to hear that something's being done.

Anyway, the issue about silences is it's not just a Ret problem, it's a problem the entire class faces.

Wonder why Holy paladins did so poorly after season 1? The second a class with an interrupt saw those glowing hands, boom, that was it.

As nice as the buffs to Holy Shock is, I would hardly call it a compensation for the fact hat paladins are now the only class without an instant heal. And, when you consider the reason why Resto druids were so dominant in the arena seasons? It was because those HoTs of their could enable them to play defensively, run, cyclone (which needs harsher diminishing returns), shape-shift out of trouble and so on. No other class had that kind of mobility, but I digress.

One-spell school. Being locked out of that spell-school is very bad. You can't fake out good players. Trust me, you won't. All Ret will have is crusader strike... and very oddly, they won't be able to use divine storm, since it hits for physical now.

[ Post edited by Iliya ]

Kaitwo

Laughing Skull

27. Re: ?'s most Paladins are wanting answers to. 11/01/2008 10:35:00 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

Slow is a ranged spell. More QQ please.

You think I'm QQing about that change? Lol, even you should know such a nerf is inconsequential.

You're the paladin, so QQ moar!

Amel

Gnomeregan

28. Re: ?'s most Paladins are wanting answers to. 11/01/2008 10:36:40 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

Slow got hotfixed to last 10 seconds instead of 15 yesterday. So, that kinda shoots down that overly dramatic argument of yours, doesn't it?

Does it? How many hours was 3.0 live before the hotfixing began? How many hotfixes were there? How many involved our damage?

Now, same questions for you.

Øbese

< OM NOM NOM NOM NOM N… >

Crushridge

29. Re: ?'s most Paladins are wanting answers to. 11/01/2008 10:37:48 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

We understand that AW will be used much, much less than it is now in Arenas. That wasn't the intention, but we felt we needed to counter the standard winged bubble opening move that so many paladins were doing. If this change actually seems to make a difference (because to be honest despite the number of nerfs we've done to Ret, they were still overpowered) than we'll consider other ways of getting the same effect that don't involve Forbearance.

We can't let one spec run around killing everyone just because they were underpowered before. I expect you'd be just as frustrated as other classes if it was Elemental shammies or Feral druids dominating everyone in PvP. Where Ret's history did come into play is we originally tried relatively small nerfs originally (though the paladin community didn't perceive them as such at the time). In retrospect, being gentle there didn't do you guys any favors because then we just had to come back two more times with big nerfs.

We made a lot of big changes to classes for LK and we need to able to adjust them as needed. I honestly wasn't doing this job for the past two years, so I'm not in a position to comment on why certain decisions were made the way they were. I have faith they were made for good reasons, but I just can't share them with you because I don't know. I will say that the perception around Blizzard was that the Ret paladin situation was very severe. I don't want to understate it. It was considered one of the most egregious balance problems we've had in some time.

See above.

Mana burns - yes.
Distance closing and interrupts - we are considering giving Ret or paladins in general some new utility to make up for all the nerfs we have made to their damage. It will almost certanly not be MS though. You can find a thread where I recently attempted to explain why we don't want to give out more MS debuffs.
I haven't heard a lot of silence complaints from paladins recently (more than normal I mean). Is this a new problem? Care to elaborate?

Saying you werent here so you dont know why blizzard didnt do their job is pretty convienent eh? Its quite obvious to me atleast that pallies are being handled very differently than any other class. Nerfs are hot fixed, lies are being used to hook them along for a few more months, months of beta completely ignored, general limitations and tools that have been brought up for over a year are still ignored for the expansion. Its just disheartening to see this handled so poorly.

Ret needs Longevity in arenas, Nerf to JOTW step in wrong direction

Burst is to hard to balance, dont try. Ours was way to much

Closing distance is needed, the nerf to JoJ is the wrong direction unless a slowing effect is going to be added.

Making AW unusable due to forbearance. When 3.0 hit, it was like we gained an ability because we werent worried about how screwed we would be if we used wings instead of just saving for the bubble. Wings means death.

[ Post edited by Øbese ]

http://img30.picoodle.com/img/img30/4/4/9/f_Bob1m_60bd0cc.jpg

Ret Pally Fix coming soon?!?

Divinelight

< WoW you A Dude äss >

Gorgonnash

30. Re: ?'s most Paladins are wanting answers to. 11/01/2008 10:38:17 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
If DS does physical damage why can't we use it when silenced?

By silenced do you mean silence or getting your holy school locked out? I haven't been PVPing much for awhile, but I've been doing lots of grinding. And when I get silenced I can use DS since it became physical damage.

Or maybe I'm just going crazy.

[ Post edited by Divinelight ]

Epicfailguy, 80 pally, Lich King-Beta

Q u o t e:
Q u o t e:
Q u o t e:
How do I respec?
/facepalm
I think it's bugged, all that does is make me cover my face with my palm

Ghostcrawler

Blizzard Poster

32. Re: ?'s most Paladins are wanting answers to. 11/01/2008 10:40:28 PM PDT

I can't honestly believe I'm asking this, but can you please explain this statement? I just don't understand it.

Q u o t e:
lies are being used to hook them along for a few more months

We never promised Retribution would be able to dominate PvP and PvE. Heck, we are usually pretty careful to never promise anything. :)

Aristodemus

< Soulbound >

Hellscream

33. Re: ?'s most Paladins are wanting answers to. 11/01/2008 10:41:17 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

Mana burns - yes.
Distance closing and interrupts - we are considering giving Ret or paladins in general some new utility to make up for all the nerfs we have made to their damage. It will almost certanly not be MS though. You can find a thread where I recently attempted to explain why we don't want to give out more MS debuffs.
I haven't heard a lot of silence complaints from paladins recently (more than normal I mean). Is this a new problem? Care to elaborate?

Of all your post so far GC. This one paragraph if you follow through with it. Will make up for everything in spades. Your comment on MS is accurate. But its about time blizzard bite the bullet on the snare issue. Avoiding it for so long has resulted in well our present state "we are too good".

Edit: Typo

[ Post edited by Aristodemus ]

Jonlo

< Force >

Kel'Thuzad

34. Re: ?'s most Paladins are wanting answers to. 11/01/2008 10:41:40 PM PDT

Another question:

How will this affect the ability for Paladins to be able to use Avenging Wrath to make threat, as you yourself stated that the vast amounts of threat that tanks are putting out now balances out at 80, and that watching threat will be more important.

If I have to choose between threat capping the DPS, or needing Divine Protection to survive a large burst of damage, why not just alleviate the issue by picking a different tank? That may sound extreme, but that's how min/maxers are.

The best reason to play a Paladin.

http://img310.imageshack.us/img310/2584/paladins0gf.jpg

Venal

Burning Blade

35. Re: ?'s most Paladins are wanting answers to. 11/01/2008 10:42:42 PM PDT

- AW will NEVER EVER be used in arenas. both by ret and holy
- Prot will NEVER use it in any serious encounter as they lose their shield wall for 2 min
- Holy unlikely to use it in pve, ever.
- Ret in pve - AW cooldown = forbearance = they lose permanently the use of 3 shields also affected by forbearance, or they stare at their PLUS DPS button unable to click it.

its a fascinating question: how did the solution to "must fix bubble + wings in pvp" turn into "Lets remove AW from all arenas all the time, AND lets have our fix affect totally unrelated stuff in PVE such as tanking"

Novia

Destromath

36. Re: ?'s most Paladins are wanting answers to. 11/01/2008 10:42:43 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

We understand that AW will be used much, much less than it is now in Arenas. That wasn't the intention, but we felt we needed to counter the standard winged bubble opening move that so many paladins were doing. If this change actually seems to make a difference (because to be honest despite the number of nerfs we've done to Ret, they were still overpowered) than we'll consider other ways of getting the same effect that don't involve Forbearance.

Ghostcrawler - I'm not understanding why the winged bubble move was such a big deal? Bubble in and of itself is overpowered, but that's OK because it's on a 5 minute cooldown. It sort of seems like it's possible that you're letting people's anecdotes guide this decision. If you feel that strongly about it though, here are a couple solutions I have.

-Simply make one buff overwrite the other
-Make one buff not castable while the other is active
-introduce a seperate debuff from forbearance that's MUCH shorter (say 15 seconds?)

Bubble is a big part of what Paladins are balanced around. If we're in the arena and a ret paladin pops his wings for some extra damage, that will dramaticaly change the other team's strategy, because they will know he/she can't bubble. That means that despite being balanced around this bubble, we don't get the benefit of the bubble by using Avenging wrath.

Having them share forbearance simply isn't fun. It's not a fun strategic decision to have to decide between bubble or wings. I just think adding forbearance to it was way to big of a nerf, and it would be beneficial to the class and the enjoyment of players if you implemented a different solution.

Amel

Gnomeregan

37. Re: ?'s most Paladins are wanting answers to. 11/01/2008 10:43:25 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
I can't honestly believe I'm asking this, but can you please explain this statement? I just don't understand it.

We never promised Retribution would be able to dominate PvP and PvE. Heck, we are usually pretty careful to never promise anything. :)

You did say several times that ret was fine and there were no plans to change it however. You then said that nerfs would be "surgical". You also basically said you wanted ret to stay as is for as long as possible because ret pallys were "having fun".

Øbese

< OM NOM NOM NOM NOM N… >

Crushridge

38. Re: ?'s most Paladins are wanting answers to. 11/01/2008 10:44:13 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
I can't honestly believe I'm asking this, but can you please explain this statement? I just don't understand it.

We never promised Retribution would be able to dominate PvP and PvE. Heck, we are usually pretty careful to never promise anything. :)

Sure one sec, let me get all of them up here for you, dont go anywhere.

I never wanted to be over powered.

http://img30.picoodle.com/img/img30/4/4/9/f_Bob1m_60bd0cc.jpg

Ret Pally Fix coming soon?!?

Novia

Destromath

39. Re: ?'s most Paladins are wanting answers to. 11/01/2008 10:44:24 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
I can't honestly believe I'm asking this, but can you please explain this statement? I just don't understand it.

We never promised Retribution would be able to dominate PvP and PvE. Heck, we are usually pretty careful to never promise anything. :)

nooooo don't feed the trolls =) I can't believe it when people accuse the developers of lying. That's completely absurd. It requires a delusional mind to make a statement like that.

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