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Q u o t e:
Pure classes should be able to out dps hybrid classes by a small margin. However, hybrid classes should be able to be a lot closer than they were in BC, and depending on the skill, gear and encounter involved, will sometimes beat the pure dps classes.

For purposes of this discussion, pure = mage, warlock, hunter, rogue. These are the classes that cannot spec into healing or tanking roles.

I don't want to get too far down into what that margin should be, because then players return with a WWS parse saying "See, the mage beat me. You said we would be competitive."

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So a Ret Paladin and Subtlety Rogue would do about the same DPS, even though the Ret Paladin brings way more group utility and buffs?

you cant define something as competitive if you start from a negative.

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Q u o t e:
Pure classes should be able to out dps hybrid classes by a small margin. However, hybrid classes should be able to be a lot closer than they were in BC, and depending on the skill, gear and encounter involved, will sometimes beat the pure dps classes.

For purposes of this discussion, pure = mage, warlock, hunter, rogue. These are the classes that cannot spec into healing or tanking roles.

I don't want to get too far down into what that margin should be, because then players return with a WWS parse saying "See, the mage beat me. You said we would be competitive."

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Is there any concern that by making the damage dealing aspect of hybrid classes competitive to the point that in some encounters they can achieve top damage parses over "pure" dps classes that the other aspects such as tanking and healing could be abandoned causing a shortage?

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Q u o t e:


So a Ret Paladin and Subtlety Rogue would do about the same DPS, even though the Ret Paladin brings way more group utility and buffs?

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Just because the class has utilities doesn't mean they will use them in a DPS boss fight, also there is an unpredictable variable at play called skill and it should be the determining factor on who outdpses who if everything else is theoretically balanced.

If I am a better Ret pali I will outdps the bad rogue, everytime.

Does that mean Bliz should nerf the entire spec?

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Q u o t e:


Is there any concern that by making the damage dealing aspect of hybrid classes competitive to the point that in some encounters they can achieve top damage parses over "pure" dps classes that the other aspects such as tanking and healing could be abandoned causing a shortage?

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I hope so

Prior to the ret pally nerf, a decently geared ret pally would out dps the next highest dps'er who is very well geared by almost 25% on a regular basis.

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Q u o t e:


I hope so

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Not that I think people should be "pigeon-holed" that sucks in RL and sucks in game, but finding tanks and healers for certain things can already be a challenge. There's a reason why there tends to be a higher population in "pure" specs. Ironic given my class choice I know. :P

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Q u o t e:
Prior to the ret pally nerf, a decently geared ret pally would out dps the next highest dps'er who is very well geared by almost 25% on a regular basis.

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talking about something that was acknowleged to be flawed as if it hasnt doesnt work either. Now if you could say that a feral druid could out dps all dps classes by such a margin then you would have an argument becasue no one has claimed that a feral druids dps is stellar.

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Q u o t e:


Is there any concern that by making the damage dealing aspect of hybrid classes competitive to the point that in some encounters they can achieve top damage parses over "pure" dps classes that the other aspects such as tanking and healing could be abandoned causing a shortage?

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Me thinks that when dual-speccing becomes available, those in to more of the PvE aspect of the game will choose to have a Healing/Tanking spec along with their DPS spec. Those into PvP will likely have a PvE dmg and PvP dmg spec. Shortages might be less of a problem than they are now.

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Q u o t e:
Since this a dps forum, and not all class forums are now together, post [warrior] such and such that noone else will read,

We should have a civil discussion on how to balance the classes.
1. Can we agree that "pure" dps classes should be able to outdps , by a resonably small margin (5-10%) the so called hybrid classes?

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I personally believe 5-10% is too much. I understand that a rogue cannot fill any other role besides dps, but they chose a melee dps class for a reason. Same as I chose a melee dps spec. If a raid leader knows that all things being equal the rogues will out do a ret paladin, then the raid leader will recruit a rogue to fill in a melee dps spot that could have been filled by a ret paladin that was already present.

I personally dont want to be bullied into waiting for the next expansion to be announced before I can find a guild with the single ret paladin slot open again. I should be able to compete with any melee dps spec for an open spot based on my skill and performance. If I am engineered to be that much behind this will not be the case. If it had a chance of being true then mages would not have been changing from frost to fire so they can do sunwell. The dps difference was not that significant.

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Q u o t e:


then why is there such a gap in naxx at 80 right now?

pure classes are doing 5-5.5k and hybrids are stuck under 4.5k

thats a tad more then "small margin"

oh and go find me a wws where a hybrid did more then 4.5k on patchwerk.. good luck (oh and count ret pallies after the last patch cheater)

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its cause u suck at playing ur class. l2p and you will get 5.5k dps too. I do it on live at lvl 70.

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Q u o t e:
Prior to the ret pally nerf, a decently geared ret pally would out dps the next highest dps'er who is very well geared by almost 25% on a regular basis.

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I still don't see this nerf that we got hit by, I'm still able to out dps the majority of people I party/raid with. Sure we might have to drink from time to time now (OH NOES, no more infinite mana) but I still don't have problems putting up competative numbers.

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Q u o t e:
Pure classes should be able to out dps hybrid classes by a small margin. However, hybrid classes should be able to be a lot closer than they were in BC, and depending on the skill, gear and encounter involved, will sometimes beat the pure dps classes.

For purposes of this discussion, pure = mage, warlock, hunter, rogue. These are the classes that cannot spec into healing or tanking roles.

I don't want to get too far down into what that margin should be, because then players return with a WWS parse saying "See, the mage beat me. You said we would be competitive."

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Hunters can now tank 5 mans and raids with their pets so they should therefore be considered hybrids and have their dps nerfed by at least 10%. I've seen the vids of Hunters with their pet gorillas tanking Kara, ZA and Gruul. This can't be intended and if it is it needs to be looked at so Hunter dps can be balanced accordingly.

I would say anything over 1% is not legitimately competitve. Why bring a kitty druid to a raid when a rogue brings 10 percent more damage?

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Q u o t e:


I personally believe 5-10% is too much. I understand that a rogue cannot fill any other role besides dps, but they chose a melee dps class for a reason. Same as I chose a melee dps spec. If a raid leader knows that all things being equal the rogues will out do a ret paladin, then the raid leader will recruit a rogue to fill in a melee dps spot that could have been filled by a ret paladin that was already present.

I personally dont want to be bullied into waiting for the next expansion to be announced before I can find a guild with the single ret paladin slot open again. I should be able to compete with any melee dps spec for an open spot based on my skill and performance. If I am engineered to be that much behind this will not be the case. If it had a chance of being true then mages would not have been changing from frost to fire so they can do sunwell. The dps difference was not that significant.

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5-10% is too little. While you might be so gung-ho about being only a retribution paladin, you can do other things if the guild requires it. Rogues, warlocks, mages, and hunters cannot. Our DPS needs to be higher than yours by a noticable amount with equal skill and gear. 10% should be the least amount possible if all other things are equal.

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Q u o t e:


I still don't see this nerf that we got hit by, I'm still able to out dps the majority of people I party/raid with. Sure we might have to drink from time to time now (OH NOES, no more infinite mana) but I still don't have problems putting up competative numbers.

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Your nerf has been announcd and scheduled but has not hit live. Check MMO-champion for a list of all the things they are planning for ret paladins.