The lack of change I refer to is in BC. In WotlK, you guys are trying to fix a lot of problems that raiding and pvp had. To name a few, stacking shamans in pve, some classes not being pvp viable (mainly due to ineffective talent trees), specific roles for classes (healadins) and many others.

I agree that all this had to change. But why not have implemented these before? Everyone knew for a fact that classes were not balanced in BC. There were too many hard counters and arenas were dominated by druids and rogues. So why not have fixed it back then instead of waiting for an expansion. This also relates to the PvE part, why not have fixed it back then when things were turning for the worse.

I know that changing stuff in pve comes back to pvp, but some things could have been fixed. I'm not talking about minor things such as hunter aimed shot, drains getting affected by MS. Talking about major changes that affected gameplay much like WoTlK is doing, where things are a LOT different than in BC.

So, my last question is - unlike BC where changes were pretty slow, will WoTlK offer rapid change? If certain PvE elements are conflicting to your wanted changes (like shaman stacking), certain classes being too good in pvp, would change be faster/slower or better or worse.

I just wanted to get an idea because it felt that even though some things were present, nothing happened until the expansion. Just wanted to see if this was the case or not.

I saw GC respond to something like this before. It was something along the lines of "this wasn't my job back then, so I don't really know". But our savior is here now :D

Yeah but what does the not my job part have to do with it. I understand that it may not be one persons job to change things around, it's everyones job. So when everyone is cooperating together, everyone should know about it right? IDK, was just wondering why the slow changes.

Bump, anyone care to add any responses?

That sounds good. I always wondered why it took so long, and the class by class change would take a long time since it would take so long to come up with ideas around balacing a class against the others.

Changes should happen more frequently than in BC because although its never fun to learn something and have it taken away, balancing the overall aspect of the game is the main thing and you can always learn something again :)

But thanks for the response, its good to know things will be more frequent in the future.

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Q u o t e:
I answer the way you described typically when asked about specific cases, because the truth is that I don't always know the history there. But I can respond in general terms.

We've handled class balance adjustments differently over the course of the game. We used to do the big passes where every patch was someone's turn to get overhauled. On the plus side, players really looked forward to these and it did build a lot of excitement. On the down side, we felt like we needed to tweak classes that in our estimate didn't really need a lot of tweaking. It also took so long to get back to the earlier reviewed classes again that new balance problems had crept up.

We didn't make a lot of changes during BC. In part the whole concept of Arenas was new to us and we didn't want to suddenly nerf someone massively in the middle of a season. We also changed some specs quite a bit, really getting specs like Prot paladin and Shadow priest into raids for the first time. We knew it would take some time for players to adjust. You always have to be careful making adjustments. Even if we did nothing, the game would change over time because the community would figure out new rotations, new ways to use gear, and new responses in PvP. It's hard sometimes to predict when we really need to intervene or when players will just adapt.

I will say that we realize the Arena design, while overall a positive experience, has put class balance under a powerful microscope, and we're not sure that's in the best interest of the game. We also made some pretty dramatic changes to classes as well as combat mechanics, so when problems arise, we do need to be able to respond to them.

I do think you will see classes adjusted more frequently than occured in the past. There will be a lot of tweaking shortly after LK ships, but still substantial changes even beyond that. Some will be us responding to the state of the game and some will just be new things we want to try or new solutions to old problems or just things we can finally get around to taking a look at.

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Many players are leery of your promise that changes will still be going into place once LK goes live due to past experience like you said, though the logic of maintaining the status quo during each season strikes me as odd, it is understandable based on the other points you mentioned ( arenas being new, and community adaptation). As long as we have your promise not to quit your job after LK, I think I can wait till we see what the actual situation will be at lvl 80 for major tweaking.

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Q u o t e:

I do think you will see classes adjusted more frequently than occured in the past. There will be a lot of tweaking shortly after LK ships, but still substantial changes even beyond that. Some will be us responding to the state of the game and some will just be new things we want to try or new solutions to old problems or just things we can finally get around to taking a look at.

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:( gg shaman in wow

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Q u o t e:
We didn't make a lot of changes during BC. In part the whole concept of Arenas was new to us and we didn't want to suddenly nerf someone massively in the middle of a season. We also changed some specs quite a bit, really getting specs like Prot paladin and Shadow priest into raids for the first time. We knew it would take some time for players to adjust. You always have to be careful making adjustments. Even if we did nothing, the game would change over time because the community would figure out new rotations, new ways to use gear, and new responses in PvP. It's hard sometimes to predict when we really need to intervene or when players will just adapt.

I will say that we realize the Arena design, while overall a positive experience, has put class balance under a powerful microscope, and we're not sure that's in the best interest of the game. We also made some pretty dramatic changes to classes as well as combat mechanics, so when problems arise, we do need to be able to respond to them.

I do think you will see classes adjusted more frequently than occured in the past. There will be a lot of tweaking shortly after LK ships, but still substantial changes even beyond that. Some will be us responding to the state of the game and some will just be new things we want to try or new solutions to old problems or just things we can finally get around to taking a look at.

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I´m very glad to see this, I can only hope that we see more involvement on the devs on the way the game plays, i mean, make it feel more dynamic. I´m not saying you go and buff/nerf a spec per week, just... you know, tweak what needs to be tweaked ( when it´s necesary).

Actually i feel this behavior would be very beneficial to the playerbase, sine we all would need to learn to adapt to changes, and maybe keep looking for ways to optimize DPS, TPS or healing.

On a side note, GC please, the ground feels like 6 feet over my head now....

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Q u o t e:
I
I will say that we realize the Arena design, while overall a positive experience, has put class balance under a powerful microscope, and we're not sure that's in the best interest of the game. We also made some pretty dramatic changes to classes as well as combat mechanics, so when problems arise, we do need to be able to respond to them.

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I only see 2 ways to solve the problem you described.

#1 Remove personal ratings so people are more inclined to put the weaker classes on their teams even though it will slow the rate they gain points it does not hinder them so much that they are unable to obtain gear.

#2 make the top end pvp gear that is obtained from Arena also be available from Bg's

The philosophy of
Bg= crap gear
Bg+arena = second rate gear
Arena+personal rating = best gear

Is going to do nothing more than ensure that the weaker classes will never get anything better than 2nd rate gear.

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Q u o t e:
I answer the way you described typically when asked about specific cases, because the truth is that I don't always know the history there. But I can respond in general terms.

We've handled class balance adjustments differently over the course of the game. We used to do the big passes where every patch was someone's turn to get overhauled. On the plus side, players really looked forward to these and it did build a lot of excitement. On the down side, we felt like we needed to tweak classes that in our estimate didn't really need a lot of tweaking. It also took so long to get back to the earlier reviewed classes again that new balance problems had crept up.

We didn't make a lot of changes during BC. In part the whole concept of Arenas was new to us and we didn't want to suddenly nerf someone massively in the middle of a season. We also changed some specs quite a bit, really getting specs like Prot paladin and Shadow priest into raids for the first time. We knew it would take some time for players to adjust. You always have to be careful making adjustments. Even if we did nothing, the game would change over time because the community would figure out new rotations, new ways to use gear, and new responses in PvP. It's hard sometimes to predict when we really need to intervene or when players will just adapt.

I will say that we realize the Arena design, while overall a positive experience, has put class balance under a powerful microscope, and we're not sure that's in the best interest of the game. We also made some pretty dramatic changes to classes as well as combat mechanics, so when problems arise, we do need to be able to respond to them.

I do think you will see classes adjusted more frequently than occured in the past. There will be a lot of tweaking shortly after LK ships, but still substantial changes even beyond that. Some will be us responding to the state of the game and some will just be new things we want to try or new solutions to old problems or just things we can finally get around to taking a look at.

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I really hope you stick with this philosophy. A huge problem with TBC was many MAJOR imbalances took far too long to fix, and many have been completely ignored until now. Balance changes should happen as frequently as possible, regardless of the status of the arena season.

This is really good to hear, because BC really affected me and how I played this game.

I came into BC as a Paladin, thinking they were looking to make Ret raidable. Leveling was fine, partly because you guys littered the game with Ret gear to make leveling easier (and apparently tick off warriors.) But when I found out that Ret wasn't raid viable, thru experience, I was disappointed. I then went prot, and the first thing my healers noted was I was at a severe deficiency when it came to my health pool. For healers in early BC, healing a Paladin tank was just like healing a warrior tank, only harder. Also, Druids at this time were the King Koopas of tanking, so Paladins were pushed to a distant third. More hearbreak. I went holy, like a good paladin, for my guild, and just hated it. I still hate it. I lasted maybe 3 weeks before I asked my guild if I could reroll. They let me, and I went hunter.

I loved hunter, but always missed my Paladin because of what I thought it should be able to do. My expectations for the class really dictated my mindset. I could come to grips with Ret, although I thought Seal of Blood was utterly unfair as a faction spec (more pally hate!) What I couldn't understand at all is why you left Paladin tanks in the wilderness for so long, when the problem was pretty obvious: Stamina. You fixed it eventually, but by that time I was guild/raid leader, and we were well progressed. You mentioned shadow priests as well. They were raid viable from day one. The two most shocking class changes in BC actually, were teh awesomeness of feral tanks, and the awesomeness of shadow priests. While I was glad to see you finally make Paladins useful in end game tanking, I'm *still* upset at how long it took you guys to do it. Many paladins had to spend a lot of time and effort convincing raids to take them. Feral and Shadow had to make no such sales pitch.

I understand things like Black Temple,and Zul'Aman, and daily quests took up all the Dev time, and it was for the betterment of the game as a whole. I get that. But it's precisely because I get that, and others get that, that we worry about class balance again. Once LK hits, I'm sure you guys have a planned action list. I'm sure there is nothing on that list unexpected, and I'm sure unexpected things will pop up. My hope is that, even with Ret this time, or Boomkin, you won't throw those specs under the bus because the cost of fixing those is too high in regards to, say Arthas or Ulduar. Going in to Lich King, that is my biggest thought about the game. I'm looking forward to 10 man raiding this time. Winterspring sounds fun. I love arenas. Death Knights should be a blast. But all of it pales to my concern that you are going to take 9 months to a year to fix classes that should be fixed much sooner.

Unfortunately for you, you've betrayed sentiments inside Blizzard dev that don't sit well with a lot of us, and we hold that against you. Lifebloom not being nerfed is a big one for me, because it definitely shows a class bias, even if it isn't intentional. Again, we understand that's going to happen. Time and events dictate that someone gets the short end of the stick. This time around, I really, really hope you guys fix that in a much timelier manner than before. That's going to make all the difference in the world to me, and many others. We can accept the fact that you get it wrong many times. What's hard to accept is when we know that you are aware it's wrong, and choose to do nothing about it.

My personal feeling is we have 6 months to get the classes near correct. After that, it will be tweaks, like HARP changes or the +stam talents in Protection for Paladins. After that, as is your M.O. any big changes will be shelved for the next expansion, because that dev time will be towards something you can sell us. Not complaining, just aware of the reality.

It's like the President. They say the President really has 18 months to do actual Presidential stuff. After that, it's all done thru the lens of getting re-elected. You guys will have 6-9 months to get LK right. After that, I expect you'll start making decisions to "push it off to Expansion 3."

THATS what I'm worried about. A part of me still expects to get to 80 and find myself being called "lolret" again, and not even having a chance to prove myself. That's my biggest concern right now. I love arena, too, and that's a whole new bag of marbles, with a laundry list of complaints, but for now, I just want my spec respected. That's all.

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Q u o t e:
I will say that we realize the Arena design...has put class balance under a powerful microscope, and we're not sure that's in the best interest of the game.

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Quoted for Hunter truth.

Known bugs, and decided changes need to be implemented faster.

Right now there are tons of warlocks crying about our DPS. Meanwhile there is a shadow embrace bug that only allows one warlock to benefit from SE. There's also a buff to our class incoming, and a buff to mob melee resistance incoming.

The sooner these fixes come, the sooner posts and threads will be more informed on where classes actually stand. Right now a lot of the things being cried about are going to be alleviated. The sooner they're fixed the sooner we can find something else to cry about ;)

I think the lack of responsiveness in the past to balance issues in PVP and PVE has a lot of players very uneasy going into WOLK especially with the huge changes to raid utility and dps of hybrids and pure dps classes. Players on both sides are nervous that they won't be fixed like mages weren't fixed in SWP.

A glaring imbalance for only a couple months is an eternity when you play regularly. It took Blizzard 5 months to fix the 360 degree cleaves and that issue was almost game breaking for my rogue back then. It created some awkward situations with people that I grouped with prior to BC and definitely left me a few steps behind gear wise when my guild first set foot in Kara. The fact that casters also had access to tailored gear that was far superior to anything available to my class didn't help either. Heroics and Kara are trivial now but they were an important stage of progression that I was pretty much left out of because Blizzard didn't respond in a timely manner.

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Q u o t e:


I think you mean kaleidoscope, GC; class balance in arenas is a very specific niche, almost completely divorced from the rest of the game.
I'm not sure if it was ever officially stated, but certainly the general impression as to why many classes had such poor viability in so many important areas in BC was because the devs had tried to balance the whole thing around arena play, leaving raid and BG viability as an afterthought.

Nice to hear the devs are aware that may not be the best approach going forward, at least.

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Still haven't heard of them scratching the "arena or die" mentality yet. As long as that is in the game, most of what GC just said regarding arenas is irrelevant.

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Q u o t e:
I answer the way you described typically when asked about specific cases, because the truth is that I don't always know the history there. But I can respond in general terms.

We've handled class balance adjustments differently over the course of the game. We used to do the big passes where every patch was someone's turn to get overhauled. On the plus side, players really looked forward to these and it did build a lot of excitement. On the down side, we felt like we needed to tweak classes that in our estimate didn't really need a lot of tweaking. It also took so long to get back to the earlier reviewed classes again that new balance problems had crept up.

We didn't make a lot of changes during BC. In part the whole concept of Arenas was new to us and we didn't want to suddenly nerf someone massively in the middle of a season. We also changed some specs quite a bit, really getting specs like Prot paladin and Shadow priest into raids for the first time. We knew it would take some time for players to adjust. You always have to be careful making adjustments. Even if we did nothing, the game would change over time because the community would figure out new rotations, new ways to use gear, and new responses in PvP. It's hard sometimes to predict when we really need to intervene or when players will just adapt.

I will say that we realize the Arena design, while overall a positive experience, has put class balance under a powerful microscope, and we're not sure that's in the best interest of the game. We also made some pretty dramatic changes to classes as well as combat mechanics, so when problems arise, we do need to be able to respond to them.

I do think you will see classes adjusted more frequently than occured in the past. There will be a lot of tweaking shortly after LK ships, but still substantial changes even beyond that. Some will be us responding to the state of the game and some will just be new things we want to try or new solutions to old problems or just things we can finally get around to taking a look at.

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In my opinion, getting rid of the 2v2 bracket entirely would go along way to eliminating the "microscope" on class balance. Any chance that the 2v2 bracket will be dropped? Or perhaps replaced with a 4v4 bracket?

Thanks much.

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Q u o t e:
I do think you will see classes adjusted more frequently than occured in the past. There will be a lot of tweaking shortly after LK ships, but still substantial changes even beyond that. Some will be us responding to the state of the game and some will just be new things we want to try or new solutions to old problems or just things we can finally get around to taking a look at.

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This is both good and bad. The best part of this game is that it is immersive. The worst part of this game is that immersion is usually broken in the name of 'class balance'. For example, after TBC, you nerfed holy paladins hard. Suddenly this game felt... well... like a game. ;) I didn't feel like investing any amount of time 'growing' my character because with a flip of a bit (well, a few :P), everything could be changed.

I think mid-expansion, you really ought to be a bit more surgical (and not 'ret pally surgical' :P).

Also keep in mind, when GC talks about having time to get around to issues that had been pushed out before, those were issues that were either big design changes (changing soulshards), or required programming/art work (a new ability for fury warriors, changing disengage to ignore snares, etc)

Tweaks to the numbers of existing abilities can be done very very quickly. They don't introduce bugs for the most part, and you can just make the changes and see what happens.

A lot of these other changes are going to require a full software cycle. You need to create documentation, implement all the features including software, art, tooltips, even updating the website in some cases. You need to do a full test effort for the new feature, testing a million corner cases for the new ability. Then you need to do a full regression test on how that ability interacts with all the other things in the game. Then you need to re-run all your dps simulations and make sure it isn't out of whack. THEN, when everything is reviewed and checked in and passes, it gets into a PTR build, which then runs for a month while they test the new ability under full load, make sure it doesn't have weird performance impact on the game (like that achievement that constantly polled your crit rate or whatever), analyzing the pvp/arena implications of the ability, making sure that the new art doesn't clip or mess up in any of a million hardware configurations.

So...it takes a while. Even if for the designers, the ultimate decision on what direction to go takes similar amounts of time, it's simply going to take a lot longer to push changes like that into the live game, so it gives the impression that the designers are slowing down. But they aren't really, it's just the kind of changes...