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Q u o t e:


Hmm... tons of armor, or some dodge... Hmm... Getting hit for 100 a hit hurts compared to taking a melee hit for 2-3k, eh?

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I know, it might SEEM like a good idea to exaggerate and make things seem worse than they are...but really, they aren't. How about some real math rather than false numbers you pulled out of thing air to try and make things look better?

My Paladin has 8489 armor, giving him 44.57 damage reduction, but only has 10.09% chance to dodge and 5% chance to parry. This is with his PvE set though...he has less dodge in his PvP set because there's less / no agility on it.

My bf's Rogue has 3482 armor, giving him 24.80% damage reduction, but has 23.12% chance to dodge and 5% chance to parry. Much higher avoidance, and since Rogue PvP gear DOES have Agility, he doesn't lose too much of his dodge when he puts it on.

Now, I wonder how the paladin only gets hit for 100, but the rogue takes 2000% more damage....oh right, you were exaggerating. How silly of me.

If the Paladin was only hit for 100 damage, the rogue will only take slightly more. 100 damage taken with 44.57% damage reduction means the original attack would've hit for ~180. Want to know how much damage the rogue would've taken? The rogue would've taken ~135 damage. 35 more damage. 35% more damage with his lesser armor, NOT 2000% more like you originally said. At the same time, he has HIGHER avoidance. So the trade off for better avoidance (10-15% more depending on whether the Paladin has PvP or PvE gear on), is 35% more damage per hit.

Sorry, but you're wrong, and your exaggeration only makes you look silly.

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Q u o t e:
HAHAHAHAHAHA... Hahahahahahah... HAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Most Moonkins wear cloth. I have ~1400 armor. Pop 360%. That's not much. Less than a shield on any class gives. JUST the shield.

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Most Moonkins wear cloth? In PvP? Citation please. If you're PvEing, yeah they will most likely be in cloth, but in PvP where they will be getting hit, they would most likely grab their leather gear instead.

Considering I can pull up a Boomkin in PvP gear and he has 3215 armor in his PvP gear (found here: http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Cairne&n=Ozxx ) Guess how much armor that is with Moonkin Form? 11895 Armor. MORE than a Ret Paladin IN PLATE.

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Q u o t e:
So... we're supposed to outrun you while only being able to cast insect swarm (only instant cast that doesnt require you facing target, and hope you dont stop, heal yourself, mount up, and repentance us?

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You can jump + spin to cast Moonfire on targets behind you. Also, if you keep the PAladin in combat, he cannot mount. If he stops to heal, start pelting him with Wraths. He'll either stop casting to try and get closer to you while you're casting, or he'll finish healing and you'll have gotten some more damage off.

Moonkins have trouble with healers! News at 11.

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Q u o t e:


Might I point out the feral talents Protector of the Pack and Thick Hide?

Not to mention all the -crit, dodge, etc in bear form from talents <_<

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You specifically mentioned gear. :p You still have plate level armor, which is the point!

Here's an easy example

http://armorylite.com/us/Laughing+Skull/Bubler- full gladiator ret paladin friend of mine, armor: 11722

http://armorylite.com/us/Laughing+Skull/Blython- said paladin's moonkin alt, vengeful gear + brutal shoulders, armor in moonkin form: 12210

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Q u o t e:
Here's an easy example

http://armorylite.com/us/Laughing+Skull/Bubler- full gladiator ret paladin friend of mine, armor: 11722

http://armorylite.com/us/Laughing+Skull/Blython- said paladin's moonkin alt, vengeful gear + brutal shoulders, armor in moonkin form: 12210

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Pfft, sure, take the easy way out. :P

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Q u o t e:
Arcane mages and Balance druids are definitely something we're keeping an eye on. We might need to hotfix either or both or we might not. I have no announcements about either at this time. But if they are overpowered at all, it is nowhere near the level at which Ret paladins were.

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I really dislike the level of exorbitant damage balance druids are capable of doing it right now because it is hiding the problems that will need to be solved if we are ever to be played in high level arena combat.

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Q u o t e:
Arcane mages and Balance druids are definitely something we're keeping an eye on. We might need to hotfix either or both or we might not. I have no announcements about either at this time. But if they are overpowered at all, it is nowhere near the level at which Ret paladins were.

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I feel sorry for you GC, answering all these posts that don't deserve answers.

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Q u o t e:
Arcane mages and Balance druids are definitely something we're keeping an eye on. We might need to hotfix either or both or we might not. I have no announcements about either at this time. But if they are overpowered at all, it is nowhere near the level at which Ret paladins were.

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Did you get some coffee this morning? You were up pretty late last night!

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Q u o t e:
Arcane mages and Balance druids are definitely something we're keeping an eye on. We might need to hotfix either or both or we might not. I have no announcements about either at this time. But if they are overpowered at all, it is nowhere near the level at which Ret paladins were.

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When all of a sudden you stop seeing Druids Rogues and warlocks in 2's arena because a new class has filled the "overpowered" nitch, you KNOW something is wrong.

Moonkin damage at 80 is more balanced than our damage at 70. I think that trying to balance for 70, when there's like 2 weeks before the expansion comes out, would be really bad for balance druid. When the next patch goes through, we lose a flat 2% of our damage off the top, along with nerfing our PvE damage by taking away the usefulness of casting starfire to refresh moonfire because of the glyph change. We're already also losing our mana returns from hurricane/starfall crits.

I think those three changes alone should be enough to keep moonkin "in line" with where you want them to be at 80. If we're having too high of burst damage at 80, the fault is from buffing Eclipse too much. If starfire is killing people in arena, it's because the opposing team let us get off a 3 second cast spell, which is a problem with the opposing arena team and not moonkin.

Please don't balance moonkin around the QQ of level 70s that haven't played at level 80. That's all I ask. :o)

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Q u o t e:



Where did you get these numbers, I want to see recent pics of players doing this damage.
The highest ambushes I got on actual players in Beta is 900-1800 on leather classes with 130DPS daggers and 2500AP...

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Please don't be ridiculous. Ambush crits for well over 4k are commong on live right now at 70 on cloth/leather.

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Q u o t e:
Arcane mages and Balance druids are definitely something we're keeping an eye on. We might need to hotfix either or both or we might not. I have no announcements about either at this time. But if they are overpowered at all, it is nowhere near the level at which Ret paladins were.

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God, thank you for a Blue who FINALLY says what many of us have been saying.

I just wish you had hotfixed some sustained DPS buffs in with the burst DPS nerfs. I understand waiting for 3.0.3 but...its not fun feeling like I'm getting weaker each week.

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Q u o t e:


God, thank you for a Blue who FINALLY says what any of us have been saying.

I just wish you had hotfixed some sustained DPS buffs in with the burst DPS nerfs. I understand waiting for 3.0.3 but...its not fun feeling like I'm getting weaker each week.

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If I were a raid leader and had a choice between a hunter and a paladin, I would take the paladin. They bring so many more buffs to the raid, and their survivability is better. Not that a hunter wouldn't also be great =)

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Q u o t e:

Please don't balance moonkin around the QQ of level 70s that haven't played at level 80. That's all I ask. :o)

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They did it to Ret, don't hold your breath.


Actually, maybe you should. Druids weren't nerfed in TBC, so i doubt it'll happen in WotLK.

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Q u o t e:
Arcane mages and Balance druids are definitely something we're keeping an eye on. We might need to hotfix either or both or we might not. I have no announcements about either at this time. But if they are overpowered at all, it is nowhere near the level at which Ret paladins were.

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GC, I disagree. Because the changes to ret pallies were so great, everyone and their extended family jumped onto the ret bandwagon, filling the BG's, and everyone else had no idea about the techniques to kill the new ret pallies. So it made ret seem very OP in PVP.

But if you look at BG's NOW on live, you'll see Arcane mages and druids in the top slots. This could be because:
1. People have adapted to ret pallies strong melee burst
2. The nerfs already pushed live have had an effect

Honestly I don't know why you'd be surprised that a nerf to paladins wouldn't have an instant effect. You created loopholes in their burst ability but it just took some time for people to start finding ways to exploit it.

Go look at the BG's and arenas with a fresh pair of eyes and you'll see that it's no longer dominated by ret pallies the way it was during week 1 of the 3.02 patch.

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Q u o t e:


They did it to Ret, don't hold your breath.


Actually, maybe you should. Druids weren't nerfed in TBC, so i doubt it'll happen in WotLK.

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They did it to Ferals very shortly after BC was released. :P

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Q u o t e:


If I were a raid leader and had a choice between a hunter and a paladin, I would take the paladin. They bring so many more buffs to the raid, and their survivability is better. Not that a hunter wouldn't also be great =)

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Misdirection for fights like Nightbane is a far bigger lifesaver than BoP could be, especially since Misdirection keeps the dragon facing away from the raid :P

Granted, I see your point, but with the right pets a Hunter makes a great "spot filler" / "Buff bot". (Wolf's ferocious howl in place of BoMight, Ferocious Inspiration in place of Sanctified Retribution). But if someone needs a mana battery, a Paladin is your best friend.

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Q u o t e:
Calling for some "nerfs" to paladins because of burst damage might be reasonable.
But when you have Moonkins doing 5 k starfires, mages doing 6-7k arcane barrages and rogues doing 5k ambushes, you have become a hypocrite. Mages have iceblock and invisibility and a reusable form of CC and roots at their disposal, druids as well can cc and root and run away in travel form and stealth, each class has a strength on offense and defense.

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Quit whining. When Balance Druids dominate pvp you might have some reason to complain. Until then stfu and get some resillience.

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Q u o t e:
They did it to Ferals very shortly after BC was released. :P

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Yet did nothing to Resto/Dreamstate for 3 seasons.