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To wit, judgment is top priority if you are mana strained.

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BoUSs? I thought they didn't exist.

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Oh nonononono. Just look at the Patchwerk parse alone. You'll see him using both Mutilate AND Sinister Strike as the same build.

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Not seeing this in the patchwerk parse.

But it does seem to me that maybe he did respec- but maybe the gear had is nowhere near comparable? Ranjid does seem to do a good bit of damage as a rogue and I would be concerned as a rogue that Spreists are beating me...

However- that being said- Yes, I would be concerned if this a tank and spank fight- non Undead- a rogue with similar gear/skill should beat me.

I think if I was raid lead I would still pick thephoenix over lawlawlawlaw- which should support the "bring the player" theory...

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BoUSs? I thought they didn't exist.

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Your comment baffles me. Please explain :)

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In a full damage rotation, CS is given top priority.


In Thephoenix's rotation, Judgement was given top priority.

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You don't play a paladin do you? Judgement is priority. Go away troll.

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It doeeeeees.

WWS is stupid like Recount and doesn't subtract 'friendly fire'.

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This begets the question, how much damage WAS he doing?

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In a full damage rotation, CS is given top priority.


In Thephoenix's rotation, Judgement was given top priority.

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Assuming you have the mana to use it. Judgment is the new prio given JotW nerfs.

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Not seeing this in the patchwerk parse.

But it does seem to me that maybe he did respec- but maybe the gear had is nowhere near comparable? Ranjid does seem to do a good bit of damage as a rogue and I would be concerned as a rogue that Spreists are beating me...

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Yeah, I looked at it, I was being dumb and had 2 windows open at the same time.


But he is missing specials, whereas the rogue at #1 on the patch parse is not, which means his gear is bad.

Bad gear = his DPS is going nowhere no matter wether he's combat or mut.

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Your comment baffles me. Please explain :)

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I was responding to the poster in the guild Beasts of Unusual Size (whom I hang with on other forums).

Which is a reference to Rodents of Unusual Size, and if you don't get that reference, do yourself a huge favor and rent The Princess Bride.

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So you think you should have it all ??.. Outrageous DPS and Shield Block, Dodge, Defense, Shield wall (ish) talents, ... So .. Uber Defense .. and full out Offense.

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A ret pally using a one hander and a shield should be kicked out of the raid if he is dpsing (as someone has pointed out a ret with a shield and throwing heals means someone Fed up). Dodge, Defense, and Bubble only helps you if you are getting hit which as a dps you should not. The only time they would use Divine Protection is if the tank called for it otherwise mana would be put to other uses such as dps. Please stop trying to fail so hard.

Those who say anything about Ret healing abilities need to take a look at the Patchwerk healing figures:

- He did more damage to himself than he personally healed through Divine Storm, ILotP, and Blood Aura.
- Divine Storm was almost exactly even with ILotP and Blood Aura for that contribution (so his own abilities were 1/3)

Would JoL make up the difference? Perhaps, but it should be clear that any contribution to healing that the paladin is doing is offset by the best DPS coming from SoB.

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There does seem to be a consensus that in an undead dungeon, every Ret pally should be at the very top of the charts. Is that what you're arguing? Oops -- I meant to add that Exorcism + Holy Wrath was about 6% of his damage, though he would have spent some of that mana on other things if there had been no undead.

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See, now to me, theres the kicker.. He was pushing out what I consider decent DPS while utilizing his anti undead abilities.. However, if you look at the #'s, he was also using Judge/CS/DS every time they were active.. Meaning to maintain DPS he had to use additional cooldowns.. He was explicitly trying to remove mana as an issue so he could maintain full rotations of all cooldown abilities..

Now, remove the Exor/HW from the equation, and he will continue to do his extra autoattacks(Judge/CS/DS), but will not actually gain any extra DPS..

See what i'm saying? The problem im seeing is that if you remove the extra CD's, his DPS cant actually *get* any higher. The long timers on our attacks, and/or lack of reactive damage abilities(E.G. Talents that on X event clear/reduce cooldown of Y ability), are hardcapping the DPS.

EDIT: TL;DR - Additional Mana != Additional DPS due to CD timers on extra autoattacks(CS/DS/Judge)

Did a quick WWS analysis to see how WOTLK balance was working out.

Interestingly enough, nearly every class represented in the raid was able to achieve the top #1 spot on boss fights, kudos to blizz for the balancing job. Very tricky to juggle, but seems to have been successful in a lot of respects.

That being said, we can't armory these folks, so we can't really see the gear comparison very well.


The BM Hunter and the Frost DK were the highest, most consistent dps/dmg during this parse, putting them head and shoulders above the rest of the classes.

Mages stayed in the top ten, all but one of the times. They were in the Top 3 only 50% of the time.

Shadow priests were in the top ten 70% of the time.

Frost DK was always in the top ten, top 3 60% of the time.

Warlocks in the top ten, top 3 50% of the time.

Boomkin was #1 once, never in the top 10 prior to that.

These summaries aren't conclusions, but I would say the ret pally and the boomkin (and the rogue that was really low) were either undergeared, getting used to a new rotation or out of whack.

Consistently over the top was the Frost DK and the BM hunter. The rest (if the assumption is that the gear looks reasonably similar) seem well balanced.

I personally would be interested to see more specs in there (afflic lock, arcane and a frost mage, MM hunter, fury warrior, feral druid, etc) as those are the specs lots of people feel are under powered/under represented.

Anyway, post up a gear comparison for Thephoenix, because no amount of skill (if he's the best) will overcome a huge gear discrepancy.

On a personal note, take this in stride, Ghostcrawler has promised that you'll be viable. There are still other classes and other specs out there waiting for their dps as well.

At least you didn't get voted most useless class in every interview by a major guild like mages did! =)

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Just a note on this, since the parse counted the damage done to himself by the rune, as evident here: http://wowwebstats.com/mej2qselnf1pm?s=210494-251261&a=x4c604

I can only assume it counted the self inflicted damage from Martyr as well.

Someone please tell me I'm wrong.

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you are correct wwstats is recording dmg done to himself into his total dmg/dps
http://wowwebstats.com/mej2qselnf1pm?s=210494-251261&bl=210494&filter=spell%3D%22Seal+of+the+Martyr%22
so his dmg is about 1-3% lower than stated.

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Consecrate is a very mana-intensive spell. I'm not sure I would use it except when tanking or in a mana-rich situation. Many if not all classes have abilities that they know are not damage efficient for their cost. Sometimes you want to use these anyway depending on the situation.

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That would be a new concept for most ret paladins, we had to throw down consecrate (in most cases a lower ranked consecrate) in order to do any kind of respectable dps on a lot of fights. And this was because we didnt have any extra abilities to turn to after CS and Judgement was on cooldown.

But now we have more control over our damage now that CS, DS, and Judgement procs seals ( though on the beta judgement is bugged and wont proc any seals at the moment). So taking out consecrate out of the rotation isnt such a bad idea. Theres plenty of cases in which other classes have to hold back on other abilities due to its efficiency. A fire mage could just spam Pyroblast since it does more damage than a fire ball, but with the cast time, is it the smart thing to do without the Hot Streak proc?

On the beta im able to keep up a steady rotation, took out consecrate, prioritised judgement, and kept Divine Plea on constant cooldown. With out using consumables, I can keep my mana up without running dry. Just takes a bit more micro managing is all. The one thing im concerned about is that the damage has been lowered ( the judgement not seal proccing bug for one). Were the changes to the seals really that nessasary? I mean the burstyness is gone for sure, and the sustainability is there....just the damage isn't there.

If we are only supposed to use 3 attacks that will always be on cooldown. Then the damage loss from our other abilities should be rolled into those 3 attacks (Like making CS and DS do holy damage example). You know this as well as most people here do Ghostcrawler. Retribution paladins wont always be around undead mobs to use Exo or HW. And we wont always be in an AoE situation in which Consecrate would help us out in that "non optimal" situation as you put it. So something needs to be done about the damage we should be able to maintain in a normal case.

As far as your question as to where i see myself on the meters. I say i should be wherever my melee comrads are. There are some fights in which the range has the upper hand and melee doesn't and there are some fights in which melee isnt bothered with moving around. But whatever the case may be. I believe I should be anywhere around where they are. Whether it be at the very top or in the middle. You should be able to look at the parse and notice that all the damage was in a competing chance within the Rogues, warriors, death knights relm of ability.

I greatly appriciate your presence in the forums. And i do hope you remain around here to talk to people to joke around or even to address concerns. Despite what people say, you are still everyones favorate blizz developer.

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This begets the question, how much damage WAS he doing?

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Hm.

He did 1.5 million damage over the length of t he parse to himself from Judgements alone. He probably dealt more but I'm using the average damage of hits and crits times the number of judges, which is all lowered by the outlier that is the recoil damage.

As for the seal... 292,825 damage to self from the seal.


total of 1.8 million damage to self. Uh, yeah, danger, danger, danger will robinson, danger.