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Actually, TG fury will be completely overpowered. Unless a fix went in for deep wounds (Which I think it did.). See the mechanics of deep wounds allows for MH dots on off hand crits, which means a dagger off hand, with a 1.3 speed can garner tremendous deep wound damage with a two hander main. We are talking leaps and bounds above anything on that chart.

That is a warrior bug that needs to be fixed.

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It is getting fixed. So I'm not worried about it. Was a bug in the same vein as 2h spec damage stacking bug, classes shouldn't get nerfed because of stupid bugs.


The problem with Sudden Death is how total it is. You either convert to a rotation that involves spamming every time the button lights up or you don't. The rage dump involved hurts, even with the new caveat on the talent, because you only get rage at [your weapon speed] x [your total haste], which has always been the problem with Arms, rage generation with a 2hander. It worked in the upper echelons of TBC raiding because you simply had the brute force stats to MAKE it work.

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Yah, i wouldn't have a problem in the world with that, why would I?

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Because its really dumb to place emphasis for change on obvious statistical abnormalities without reading into them. There is more than enough data in just that one parse to show why the warrior did poorly...Instead of firing from the hip and screaming about buffs needed, one should probably examine things more closely.

In that vein, if you really looked at the paladin within that parse, you would see that he is in "good shape" with a few "problems". As someone else said, a small mana tick upwards would probably be more than enough to completely balance him.

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Q u o t e:

I said Exo and Holy Wrath. His total damage for Patchwerk was 737,590. Subtract the 33,685 (exo and holy wrath) from that damage done, and you are left with 703,905. 12th place in the fight, or about 2826 dps.

That's really, really far behind.

And FYI, dragons are a huge part of raiding and lore in WotLK, so not every boss out there will be undead, nor should we be BALANCED against undead mobs. Stop being such a nerf mongering idiot.

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Not that I want to be a pain or anything but if you take out exo and holy wrath you need to replace them with something. A paladin won't just not cast or use an ability in place of those.

That means the damage differential between using those abilities and not using those abilities is even lower than the 3-4% boost in DPS. To me that's a very interesting and intriguing point. I didn't know how much of a DPS boost ret paladins had against undead.

Btw, we can study this one parse as much as we like but we need more parses to be able to start seeing where the larger trends are with the latest beta build. One parse is a snapshot that doesn't give the full story.

We are led to believe the ret paladin here is an amazing one - he may be. He may also not be as geared as his peers or he may have had an off night.

As for the dark runes, if mana usage for paladins is a serious problem then it will be changed. I will point out that the paladin did -not- get the mana tide from the shaman which the other mana users did. Take that away and the other casters would have been using more mana back devices as well.

It's also interesting to see who got the replenishment buff. The ret paladin didn't get it as often as the other casters. I wonder why, maybe it has to do with the lower mana pool or maybe that paladin just likes to keep themselves topped off and thus rarely got the buff.

Taking this parse from a more objective point of view I think it shows that retribution paladins are not as bad off as many are claiming. I will need to see more parses to see if they are below the DPS curve or on top of it. It is really tough to tell on this one. In this one, I think this paladin is 'about right' or maybe a 'little low' by about 1-2%.

I firmly believe the developers have no real understanding of the mana regeneration issues across the board, much less for Paladins.

Maybe it's time for Blizzard to sponsor a math class for their lead people.

I just /boggle at the horribly thought out change to JotW. 25% would have been tuned. 15% is just a "slap in the face" as the kids say.

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Ahh, I didn't see your question/answer. Actually, I'm a pretty big advocate of paladins sustaining an infinite mana rotation, sans utility abilities. (Infinite, not unlimited.). I'll be the first to speak up and say that they might not be getting enough mana to adequately use their abilities in so far as putting out competitive DPS. However, I don't think JoTW is a good mechanic to provide that mana regeneration, rather it should come from various melee sources, so as to deter holy from specing deep ret simply for mana.

That a good enough answer for you?

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Ayup.


Actually, JoTW would be a good place to mess with. Converting it to a 'semi' rage gain talent that generates a positive mana flow every time we use a special would be better than sticking a giant lump on Judgement and leaving it up there for Shock, if they're really that interested in nerfing Shock.

I mean, that's what JoTW did, basically. Attacks were free as long as you judged within the priority of CS/Judge/Consecrate/DS, in that order. (And yes, cons is included here. We had the mana left over to do it, and the paladin in that Naxx parse is using it to the exclusion of his actual melee strikes )

With that, a ret paladin could have a similar playstyle as a DPS class in PvE and PvP without overpowering Shock or sticking a giant lump of mana regen on a single ability.

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Because its really dumb to place emphasis for change on obvious statistical abnormalities without reading into them. There is more than enough data in just that one parse to show why the warrior did poorly...Instead of firing from the hip and screaming about buffs needed, one should probably examine things more closely.

In that vein, if you really looked at the paladin within that parse, you would see that he is in "good shape" with a few "problems". As someone else said, a small mana tick upwards would probably be more than enough to completely balance him.

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You specifically asked if i would have a problem with a warrior asking for buffs if they were not peforming on par with other dps.

You're so blind it's not even funny.

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It is getting fixed. So I'm not worried about it. Was a bug in the same vein as 2h spec damage stacking bug, classes shouldn't get nerfed because of stupid bugs.


The problem with Sudden Death is how total it is. You either convert to a rotation that involves spamming every time the button lights up or you don't. The rage dump involved hurts, even with the new caveat on the talent, because you only get rage at [your weapon speed] x [your total haste], which has always been the problem with Arms, rage generation with a 2hander. It worked in the upper echelons of TBC raiding because you simply had the brute force stats to MAKE it work.

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With a good swing timer the ability is extremely effective, since it lasts 5 seconds. It does take some attention to use properly, but not an egregious amount. You simply have to wait to use until there is sub .5 left on your swing timer, so if your at the start of your swing, and you have 3.0 (ish) left, given WF+BF+Gear, then you simply use an MS global or if you don't have one (not likely given the 5 second cool down.) you can always actually slam once or twice, this does delay your swing, but it will burn off some rage more efficiently before you use the execute.

Its an interesting mechanic, it really will separate good warriors from bad ones, I hope they don't change it.

Sorry for the derail, by the way guys.

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Its an interesting mechanic, it really will separate good warriors from bad ones, I hope they don't change it.

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Lol. It's Slam all over again. Instead of worrying about clipping your white swings, now you worry about clipping your rage.

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You specifically asked if i would have a problem with a warrior asking for buffs if they were not peforming on par with other dps.

You're so blind it's not even funny.

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The problem with text is that its recorded, so your inane jibberish starts to fall apart when you used the word specifically, lets go over what I said.

Lithose:
A warrior could grab this WWS (1) and show how the single DPS warrior (2) in the raid is leagues behind all the other classes, and then state that warriors need a buff. Would you be fine with that? After all the paladin trounced him by more than 10%.

1.) Refrencing this WWS.

2.) Refrencing the data from the warrior in this WWS.

I asked you specifically if you think that his DPS tells enough of the story (His DPS being poor) that a warrior would be justified rallying for buffs? (The answer is no.)

Are you done making yourself look dumb now sir?

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Q u o t e:
I looked at that parse and I have my own thoughts about it. I am more interested in seeing your analysis of it. If Ret was working where you wanted it, where do you think it would be on that list? I'm just trying to get a feel for what you think is the magnitude of the delta we're talking about.

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It looks fine except for one problem. As someone said, his reliance on dark runes is probably a problem, that might be showing he is too mana starved. So perhaps a bit more mana to allow for dropping darkrunes or making them a bonus (As every other class would use them).

Apart from that he seems to be falling in line with the majority. He does have some room for improvement in so far as DPS time (So he could probably push more, if he had a bit more mana.), I think mana will help with that.

The abnormalities in so far as the rogue/DK/mage are probably a problem. I understand Rogue/Mage are supposed to be ahead, but this paladin doesn't look like he could do "much more" and this boss is undead, so I suppose they might need to be reeled in (especially the DK.).

In short, I don't think, aside from a small, but important, mana concern, its so much the Paladin who has the problem here, rather the problem lies with those people who are way way away from that "10% ish median.

Well it would be easier to pin down if we knew the delta you have in mind.

All we have to go on is your statements that a good paladin will out dps a bad rogue; vague at best.




Also, given the statements you've made about paladins at blizzcon on the class discussion panel and in the beta forums that level of vagueness becomes a sea of confusion.

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Q u o t e:
I looked at that parse and I have my own thoughts about it. I am more interested in seeing your analysis of it. If Ret was working where you wanted it, where do you think it would be on that list? I'm just trying to get a feel for what you think is the magnitude of the delta we're talking about.

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Maybe slightly higher given that he's (apparently :P) one of the 'best PVE ret pallys'

The fact that he had to mana pot and use a Dark Rune is where everything falls over.


On a 3minute fight, that is exceptionally bad....

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5% behind Pure classes dps , isn't that where blizzard want us to be ?

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This

and without the aid of extraordinary measures like SEVEN dark runes.

I'm going to go ahead and agree with the early poster that if they bumped JotW back up to 20-25% and reverted some reasonable chunk of the latest nerfs we'd probably be fine. In PvE. I'll go ahead and wait until I hit 80 and actually get some decent raid parses of my own where I know how good I and my competition are before I pass final judgement, but it does not look great from the numbers being posted. We are not within the proposed 5% mark even on the single fight where we are most favored(Patch is a perfect raid target dummy and he's undead). It's looking iffy.

As to the person who said we'd replace Exo and HW with something else, no we wouldn't. All our abilities are on cooldown, we either use them or we don't. There's no filler abilities to toss in there. Not to mention that the parsed paladin had abysmal efficiency rates on CS and DS, which I can only assume is due to mana issues, since he had to pop a Dark Rune and use 2 pieces of level 70 gear for the mana regen bonus.

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Q u o t e:
I looked at that parse and I have my own thoughts about it. I am more interested in seeing your analysis of it. If Ret was working where you wanted it, where do you think it would be on that list? I'm just trying to get a feel for what you think is the magnitude of the delta we're talking about.

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Well a few folks have stated it already. Because the fight was vs. lots of undead, Ret should be much closer to the top. If dps classes are to be balanced with each other but still maintain individuality we need to shine in our own areas.

Rogues are about the best single target dps class out there and should stay that way. Mages and Locks are great at AoE as they should be. Paladins have attacks that only affect demons / undead and thats where we should shine.

The comments that Ret paladins have had at 80 about poor mana regen is disheartening to say the least.

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Q u o t e:
I looked at that parse and I have my own thoughts about it. I am more interested in seeing your analysis of it. If Ret was working where you wanted it, where do you think it would be on that list? I'm just trying to get a feel for what you think is the magnitude of the delta we're talking about.

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I'm not the original poster, but i think I can guess what he would say: Make it so consumables like Dark Runes and other tricks aren't required to keep us within ~500 dps of other dps classes.

Even shadowpriests outdpsed the ret pally!