address why there is a lack of arena representation of Paladins, ret in particular in 2v2 and 3v3?

How do you plan on fixing that issue so we are not on the sidelines for another 3 seasons and are able be as competitive as a mage, rogue, warrior, druid, priest, shaman, etc.

For all your talk about bgs, the best pvp gear comes from arenas, something ret is always 2 seasons behind. When pros cant use ret at it's height of "op"ness to win, and you nerf it to nothing, what are your plans to make sure ret has a place in every tourney and arena season?

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Q u o t e:
QQ MORE PELADINS you deserve this so hard.

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...lol? lvl 38. Reverse QQ-ology. I see what u did there.

On another note, We should hold off until changes are implemented. It makes us look dumb trying to discuss this when it hasn't been released in live yet.

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Q u o t e:
I just wish feral would've gotten such a long winded apology after it was gutted in BC.

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I feel ya. Feral needed luvins badly. But don't think apologies fix anything. Nice as apologies are, broken is broken. : /

Thanks for posting GC.

I don't know GhostCrawler . I was happy for ret pallies for a while. I've been leveling my pally as prot / fet with about 14 points in ret til the mid 60's. So I never ran around having fun being admittedly overpowered. After reading these posts it's just apparent that the developers don't really have a plan. They send you out here in the forums to take the hits. While I feel some sympathy for you, the hits you are taking are more deserved than undeserved. Sure you made ret overpowered but now they will overnerf them back to the days of "LoL ret... you noob reroll prot or holy."
Ghostcrawler you just can't be counted on. I know WoW is just a game and I will treat it as such. However, if I had a choice of having you at my back in an important situation and some unreliable but well meaning pothead I would choose the pothead over you.

GC,

Serious suggestion to you on balancing/compensating Ret...and actually even Holy: easier access to Reckoning. I suggest 10 points required in Prot, and 5 from the talent = 15 total points for Reckoning.

One of the oldest talents, it has changed a bit over the years but the basic idea has ALWAYS been very solid. DON'T MESS WITH ME, OR I WILL HURT YOU. This is such a good talent; it defines the Paladin. For lack of a more elegant phrase, Reckoning is the talent that makes the Paladin into a porcupine, able to deliver justice and retribution.

So, I know what you're thinking: Ret and Holy have access to it already. I disagree. My suggestion is to let the other two specs have access to Reckoning WITHOUT losing their 51 point talent.

Just think about it. Requires no further modification to the talent. Just move it closer to the shallow end, so that people can spec for it from the other trees. Ret will be de-fanged from the nerfs and won't have much burst in its own tree. They can come into Prot to regain some of that PvP burst. And due to how Reckoning works, only IN CERTAIN conditions SOME OF THE TIME will that burst be available.

Let me list some of the benefits and counters for Reckoning.

Benefits:
- You can remove the burst from the other trees and concentrate on giving only sustained DPS. Reckoning can fill the role of quick burst for PvP.
- Makes the Paladin an undesirable target. This is both a benefit and a "counter" (below). The Paladin gets to roam the battlefield a little bit more, as people are hesitant to challenge him in melee range.
- Coolness and flavor. There's your way out of homogenization. Let Paladins be known for something: Reckoning.
- Reckoning requires no mana directly. (An active Seal makes it slightly better, which costs mana.)

Counters:
- Requires the target to be in melee range.
- Requires a proc that comes from attacking the Paladin. Ignore = no Reckoning.
- 5 point talent.
- PvP mostly, with some PvE use (for tanks).
- No, it currently does not proc from Hand of Sacrifice. This is not really a counter, but I mention it here to clarify that there is negligible PvE DPS benefit from this ability for Ret.

Please consider it. Like I said, it only takes a shift in the positions of the Prot talents.

Ok what you said about ret being so bursty in PvP is a lie a complete lie.If ret is so powerful in arena that we cab kill a opponent before he/she can react how come every single arena team with a ret paladin is not in the top 100 rated teams in WoW. I mean u yourself said that we can burst an opponent before they can react. I suggest you go look at arena teams who do not have readins in them and see how easily they can still rip through us.

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Q u o t e:
3) Judgement and Seals: Damage reduced by 20%. This is the major damage adjustment -- a lot of damage was coming from these. We do realize this hurts Holy and Protection as well, and that is something for which we are prepared to offer compensation (particularly if it hurts Protection's threat generation).

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Too bad that seal & judge were not main protection's threat sources even in early beta, and not even main holy's damage sources. However, judging rapidly is still needed because most librams proc from it, there are also talents that trigger from judge.

So in the end, we paladin got a 3-talents-wild universal seal & judge system, and it provide many utilities like mana regen/ haste/ target attack slow/ librams/ etc. But, but it deal small damages (and threats)

I don't like this changes, it also make "Seal of the Pure" talent and "Glyph of Judgement" glyph less useful too. Too many things tied to this core system.

It's useless.

Blizz blue is in its "sit and wait" mentality.

I'm betting a lot of people are agreeing with my beta forum post about nerfs now.

So now a new question arises...








Should I level my 65 mage and be OP specced as arcane (He's a *shudder* male troll, btw which is why he hasnt made it to 70 yet, was my main in MC)

Play my priest (was my main since before BWL)

Or play my hunter (lolboring)

Or make a DK..

HALP ME :D

I don't know why everyone is complaining about mana burns.

What competent arena player is going to waste time mana burning a class that is of absolutely no threat to them anymore.

What the hell is this?

The change to Judgement of Wisdom is a all around class nerf. I am a Protection Paladin and this nerf goes far beyond the Ret Paladins. Many Prot Paladins have already spoke out over our mana issue and now it would seem on top of it we will be doing less threat with our judgement and seals. Granted you said you are open to giving us more threat generation in some other area but this is cutting us off below the knees.

The already limited mana pool we have will generate less threat per mana spent and our mana will run out faster due to the hit judgement of wisdom is taking. Sure it wasn't often but I did loose threat from time to time because of my mana pool. This is going to make it a lot more often. If you got to nerf ret can't you find some other non-class destructive way to do it?

Don't get me wrong I love the ret spec and a few of my friends are ret paladins. Sure they felt a bit over powered. I am sure they will hate these changes. I hate these changes. You turned nerfing a spec into an entire class bomb.

I do hope you find some way to counter the heavy impact/nerf you layed on protection that wasn't needed. As far as class bomb I am unsure the full impact this has on a holy spec as I haven't spec'ed holy since vanilla WOW.

If you're gutting our burst damage, then compensate by giving us the necessary tools we need to stay competitive: A distance closer, a Snare, an interrupt that isnt on a one-minute cooldown, and a healing reduction effect.

If a target is ten yards away from the Paladin, and has a means to stay ten yards away, then there is quite literally NOTHING the Retribution Paladin can do about this. NOTHING. The Ret Pally has zero long-range abilities. No long-range snare, no long-range root, no long-range attacks, and no distance closer to get us into range.

Healers are now a one-sided fight. A Paladin can wail on a healer all he wants, the healer will easily heal himself back to full health while /sigh-ing at the Paladin. The Paladin has no means to stop the heals outside of a one-minute Interrupt, which is secondary to the six second stun, no healing reduction effects, and even spell pushback has been all but eliminated. Not only that, but the Paladin now can't even keep up the assault, and will go OOM long before the healer does.

GC, i don't know if you've continued to read this post (I think I almost went blind getting halfwaythrough it) But if you have can I make a simple request,

I've never seen this done before, and I don't think you'd divulge the information (if it even exists , which is the intent of asking) but...

Can you produce some of the numbers that you and the devs personal "Internal testing" shows paladin PVE damage too high? I'm just curious as to what is acceptable for paladins to do in PvE when rogues/hunters I see in parses pulling off 5k dps or more.

Can you show an internal blizzard parse of a paladin doing the mythical "too much damage"?

Or can you just tell us what that "too much damage" is? are we only allowed to be 75% of a rogue in damage?

I'm just rather curious to see if you DO have these numbers, in stead of just having some magical "intangible pile" of data to wave a hand at whenever you say you DO have numbers.

Thanks

DmC