It's going to be IMPOSSIBLE to kill healers with that weak of burst + nerfed JotW. With how much mana Druids/Priests regen now, I can't imagine how bad it will be at 80 when we have LESS mana than we do now.

FIXED: Burst lol

Either you pulled the short straw or you actually wanted to help us Ghostcrawler but either way you are at least doing something and for that I thank you personally. I do, however, hate your bosses. Someone knew what paladins needed and gave it to us. Someone understood that Arms warriors, resto druids and warlocks were the PvP kings in BC and that we we're a laughing stock for both PvP and PvE, whoever they were brought us up to being on par with other classes and maybe even a bit better.

Now all the other players are whining that were too good so whoever it was that made us good has obviously been told by management to make us noticably bad once again. I imagine you'll slowly bring us up to being a shadow of our former glory like you did when BC first came out and you took away our 6 second CS then brought it back when the other classes were too OP to notice.

I respect you Ghostcrawler but I want it to be known I hate management of most companys, and blizz has joined the list. Management only care about money and they're willing to lie to their investors, their employees and above all their customers to get it.

I'm not going to be lied to any more.

ya. ive only got like couple of moves to use to kill a healer before they heal up and if iam doing considerable less dmg i need someway to mess that healer up. need another melee ability (i was thinkin of a glowy flash gordon charge that interrupts , like intercept lawl class cloning)and shorter stun cooldown (like HoJ baseline 30 second cooldown) a fear/stun break?


and i wanna tank with a 2handed sword and protgear and be a righteous defender of light. plz ty i pay u for that k?

Take my ret guy with crusader strike and divine storm and instant cast flash of light and big pretty numbers and stick him in my protgear. gimmie some mitigation and lemme be a 2-handedtank

GC, since you're awake, could I ask you a quick question?

Could you please drop by http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=11829507828&sid=1&pageNo=1 and read the entire thread, not just the first post.

It's regarding sustaining mana as a PvE ret paladin, you are very, very close on the number for JotW, but I would like to see your input.

But please, if you're going to look at the thread, read it all. There's so much thoughtful number crunching in the later pages that I was honestly surprised it came from the paladin forums.

EDIT: Serious number crunching starts at post #49.

Hey GC,

I know you're probably half asleep and still trying to keep up with this thread


Could you please check this thread I created because its rather longwinded but I think probably the most elegant solution to our mana woes.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=11829378319&sid=1

GC, please see my post in this thread, #1243.

Blah

---

Q u o t e:


No, silly me, I did read it all.

There were some good responses, and I thank you for it. There were some good questions too, and I will try to find some time to answer them (reading them took a very long time).

While I do find some of the outrage to be over the top considering so few people have even been able to try the changes (which themselves were severe but hardly life-threatening), overall it was interesting to see the reaction. I do hope that some of it was caused, as several of you suggested, by the unfortunate timing of having a beta go live at the same time the forums went down. (Before you smell a conspiracy, do you really think I would have shifted over to the live forums if that were true?)

It's going to be challenging to keep discussing class balance in the Live forums the way I have in beta just given the magnitude of posts overall. I'm not sure how to have a conversation with so many thousands of people at once. :)

It is rewarding to once again be reminded that people really care so much about the game. Whether you choose to believe it or not, so do we.

---

Thankyou... For reading them all...

I'm sorry, over the last few days I, and I am sure the rest of us, have been overwhelmingly frustrated. I mean, someone just quoted Tseric's old posts a bit ago and I realised how much they probably apply to you, but to our community of Paladins as well...

We all want the game to work right, but the buffs then nerfs to uselesness have happened over and over again; since the original beta! For someone like me, this was the last-ish straw, and Blizzard has Never done a major overhaul for this class (let alone outside of a beta, which is where we will be in 3 weeks) and had it succeed. Given the track record I can't expect much, eventhough I wish so badly that something would happen.



I don't care about infinite mana, or this, or that... I wondered from the start if the burst method was ever going to work properly, but i trusted in the dev team, and in you. Now this mess has happened and there is no good end in sight.

I know how much you believe Holy and Prot are fine, and I know how much you think Ret probably will be too. But I also know how long I have played the game and I also know how the class works (regardless of my current gear, or arena ratings, or any of that jazz). It's so frustrating that sometimes I wish there was some way to just actually talk with people like you because I feel the class could be fixed so easily and still be completely non-op in other areas, and I feel with just real talking and a demonstration or two that you would understand entirely what not just me, but the community talks about.

However, seeing as hours and hours of 1 on 1 discussions are so impossibly unlikely to happen, I ask that you really listen to some of the people here... Taking away the burst is fine, but mana is already a flawed mechanic for Paladins who aren't Holy. And not having proper PvP tools hurts more than it seems.




Holy having a dispelable and mana intensive 51 pointer, that is situational at best, hurts them heavily, even if their raw healing is good (and I agree it is)...

Protection being under-HPed to Warriors, not scaling as well, and (this is the big one) not having the same kind of tanking utility, but also having more weaknesses Really hurts them.

Even just thinking about all the little problems and the things that are interconnected I want to rip my hair out... Not because they are difficult to solve, but because it would be so easy with just a bit of thought!!




So I guess I will end this post with another thing to point out... Look at Protection and Look at Retribution. Look at JotW for starters, can you imagine Protection having active mana regen similar to that? Wouldn't that be more fun and make them 100x more useful for PvP and solo PvE? (Having a pro-active, rather than reactive mana pool.) In my opinion this is the very first sign that something is inherently wrong, and please try and see what I am seeing (I have spent more thought on this kind of stuff that I reasonably should have; not being paid for it and all, I just love it more than I can explain).

It's that kind of ability that really throws things to the dogs. Protection would be so much better with it, so much more fun. It makes Paladins a real melee class, but only one spec gets it. Now I guess, BoSanc could also benefit from spells, but it just wouldn't be the same... It isn't the only talent like this either... Paladins are going in 100 different directions, partly (I think) because of the anti homogenization argument.

I understand that argument... But come on, some things are just needed... If only you could radically redesign the class so that it didn't even use mana... So that Prot and Ret could build their "mana" and enjoy being in combat (like other melee) rather than worry about becomming useless. Redesign it so that mana drain doesn't even play a part, so that the class has PvP tools like other classes (don't understimate Mortal Strike, distance closers, and interrupts). Imagine too if the basic heals were instant but on CD and Holy had to be in melee, building their "mana" and reducing the CD's of these casts to heal properly... Now this is a distant dream, and unlikely one too, but the class needs big work, and all I can do is beg you to make it right, somehow; to go the extra distance and make it perfect in the balanced sense.




I'm sorry for the wall of text, but this is my plea to you. And I mean, don't do it for me, some nerd who plays the game too much, or for the whiners and jerks here... Do it for those new people who want to learn and play a fun and reliable class, one that is respected in a game they love.. One of those "bright eyed" players.

All I can give you, all most of us can, are words. But they are the same words that you give us. I am beggining you, you are the only one at this point who can really do right and I have (even after all this time and I don't know why) faith in you to do the right thing. So please, listen to my words, just like I listen to yours... I have played this class for a long time, almost 3 years if not a bit more, and it has repeatedly gotten less fun. It needs work, major, major, work to fufill the potential for fun that it has. It is an inherently flawed class that needs to be taken back into line and needs some crazy ideas to really get it in a place that makes sense and feels good, with that feel good feeling when playing it, that feeling of coherency and fun.

Thanks again for reading Ghostcrawler, thanks for taking in what you see here and taking note of it. I am sorry to you that we are all so passionate and even over the top... Take care.

---

Q u o t e:
I'm not sure how many more ways to explain this, but I'll try again.

I know everyone has antecdotal data, but I saw a Hyjal parse today in which the Ret paladin was #3 on dps AND #4 on healing. In Hyjal. Where mages, druids, locks and hunters are just AE'ing everything down. If that was the only anomaly I had seen, it wouldn't have been a big deal. But of course that has become the trend, not the outlier.

---

Link to WWS please

---

Q u o t e:
I'm not sure how many more ways to explain this, but I'll try again.

---

People who don't want to get it never will.

I would have used math instead.

Ret = insanely overpowered.

Insanely overpowered then gets nerfed by 20%.

Ret x .8 = Useless?

Hell no.

Insanely overpowered x .8 = Quite good.

See, i r good at math!

---

Q u o t e:
I'm not sure how many more ways to explain this, but I'll try again.



I never lied. I'm not sure why that is such a sticking point. I almost always say "we think" or "we believe" or "at this time." And even if I don't offer those caveats, we are allowed to change our minds. I never said "We won't ever nerf Ret." That would be a lie, and the risk of such is why I would never say it.



I thought it was. I never said "Expect no more changes to Ret." And even if I had, wouldn't that be a pretty ridiculous thing for me to say? What you're actually telling me, whether you are intending to or not, is never, ever say anything or it will be held against me down the road. This is why politicians end up talking so weasely, and I don't think any of us really want that.

I know everyone has antecdotal data, but I saw a Hyjal parse today in which the Ret paladin was #3 on dps AND #4 on healing. In Hyjal. Where mages, druids, locks and hunters are just AE'ing everything down. If that was the only anomaly I had seen, it wouldn't have been a big deal. But of course that has become the trend, not the outlier.



I disagree that you trusted me. *You* might have, and I appreciate it if that was the case. The paladin community at large did not. They were outraged that they would be nerfed. The posts are still around - you can find them. This is usually the case when we have to nerf a class.

But I digress. The initial round of nerfs was not as severe as the most recent ones. When those changes didn't fix the problem, we had to make more severe ones. Think about it: if we thought the first round of nerfs wouldn't have worked, we would have just made big changes then rather than have to go through the whole episode twice. Heavens forbid if these changes aren't enough and we have to make any additional ones.

As I mentioned previously, if Ret had been underperforming and we recently announced buffs, I think you'd find dozens of pages of celebration here. That tells me this has a lot more to do with the... I don't know... the psychology, the humiliation or whatever of being nerfed than it does the actual numbers. It goes so far as to suggest a Machiavellian strategy: keep everyone's damage supressed and then buff everyone enormously right at the end of beta. The fans would go wild. Yeah that's cynical and manipulative and we'd never actually do it. But when you consider what I'm dealing with right now, it is attractive. :)

---

are u a politician or a game developer dude?

---

Q u o t e:
I'm not sure how many more ways to explain this, but I'll try again.



I never lied. I'm not sure why that is such a sticking point. I almost always say "we think" or "we believe" or "at this time." And even if I don't offer those caveats, we are allowed to change our minds. I never said "We won't ever nerf Ret." That would be a lie, and the risk of such is why I would never say it.



I thought it was. I never said "Expect no more changes to Ret." And even if I had, wouldn't that be a pretty ridiculous thing for me to say? What you're actually telling me, whether you are intending to or not, is never, ever say anything or it will be held against me down the road. This is why politicians end up talking so weasely, and I don't think any of us really want that.

I know everyone has antecdotal data, but I saw a Hyjal parse today in which the Ret paladin was #3 on dps AND #4 on healing. In Hyjal. Where mages, druids, locks and hunters are just AE'ing everything down. If that was the only anomaly I had seen, it wouldn't have been a big deal. But of course that has become the trend, not the outlier.



I disagree that you trusted me. *You* might have, and I appreciate it if that was the case. The paladin community at large did not. They were outraged that they would be nerfed. The posts are still around - you can find them. This is usually the case when we have to nerf a class.

But I digress. The initial round of nerfs was not as severe as the most recent ones. When those changes didn't fix the problem, we had to make more severe ones. Think about it: if we thought the first round of nerfs wouldn't have worked, we would have just made big changes then rather than have to go through the whole episode twice. Heavens forbid if these changes aren't enough and we have to make any additional ones.

As I mentioned previously, if Ret had been underperforming and we recently announced buffs, I think you'd find dozens of pages of celebration here. That tells me this has a lot more to do with the... I don't know... the psychology, the humiliation or whatever of being nerfed than it does the actual numbers. It goes so far as to suggest a Machiavellian strategy: keep everyone's damage supressed and then buff everyone enormously right at the end of beta. The fans would go wild. Yeah that's cynical and manipulative and we'd never actually do it. But when you consider what I'm dealing with right now, it is attractive. :)

---

I think ppl understand that our burst needed to be nerfed. I did Felmist today had a boomkin running 3k dps the whole fight and yet they are getting buffed. A mage ending a fight 2nd on dps and having twice as much mana as me (being holy spec at the time)

WE KNOW our burst was high and understand but nerfing JoTW is killing pvp PERIOD.

---

Q u o t e:
I'm not sure how many more ways to explain this, but I'll try again.

I know everyone has antecdotal data, but I saw a Hyjal parse today in which the Ret paladin was #3 on dps AND #4 on healing. In Hyjal. Where mages, druids, locks and hunters are just AE'ing everything down. If that was the only anomaly I had seen, it wouldn't have been a big deal. But of course that has become the trend, not the outlier.

---

Will you care to post those numbers? number #3 on DPS and number #4 on healing? how?

If ret paladin do #3 in hyjal it makes senses since all the mobs are UD/demon

but #4 in healing? what are u smoking dude? or what are the healers are smoking?

---

Q u o t e:
I'm not sure how many more ways to explain this, but I'll try again.



I never lied. I'm not sure why that is such a sticking point. I almost always say "we think" or "we believe" or "at this time." And even if I don't offer those caveats, we are allowed to change our minds. I never said "We won't ever nerf Ret." That would be a lie, and the risk of such is why I would never say it.



I thought it was. I never said "Expect no more changes to Ret." And even if I had, wouldn't that be a pretty ridiculous thing for me to say? What you're actually telling me, whether you are intending to or not, is never, ever say anything or it will be held against me down the road. This is why politicians end up talking so weasely, and I don't think any of us really want that.

I know everyone has antecdotal data, but I saw a Hyjal parse today in which the Ret paladin was #3 on dps AND #4 on healing. In Hyjal. Where mages, druids, locks and hunters are just AE'ing everything down. If that was the only anomaly I had seen, it wouldn't have been a big deal. But of course that has become the trend, not the outlier.



I disagree that you trusted me. *You* might have, and I appreciate it if that was the case. The paladin community at large did not. They were outraged that they would be nerfed. The posts are still around - you can find them. This is usually the case when we have to nerf a class.

But I digress. The initial round of nerfs was not as severe as the most recent ones. When those changes didn't fix the problem, we had to make more severe ones. Think about it: if we thought the first round of nerfs wouldn't have worked, we would have just made big changes then rather than have to go through the whole episode twice. Heavens forbid if these changes aren't enough and we have to make any additional ones.

As I mentioned previously, if Ret had been underperforming and we recently announced buffs, I think you'd find dozens of pages of celebration here. That tells me this has a lot more to do with the... I don't know... the psychology, the humiliation or whatever of being nerfed than it does the actual numbers. It goes so far as to suggest a Machiavellian strategy: keep everyone's damage supressed and then buff everyone enormously right at the end of beta. The fans would go wild. Yeah that's cynical and manipulative and we'd never actually do it. But when you consider what I'm dealing with right now, it is attractive. :)

---

I'm sorry you have to put up with a lot of the ignorance on these boards. I've been tracking all of your posts on the beta forums for the past few weeks, and you have shown more patience than any other blue poster. I can't post on the beta forums, but I'd like to thank you for your hard work.

People need to realize that there's a reason why blue posters are careful about what they say, and nailing them on the nitty-gritty of their posts isn't a great way to communicate to them. There are other methods besides outrage and qq. If he really wanted, then he would just not post at all on any forums.

Ret was overpowered. That's the simple, hard truth of it.
Holy isn't overpowered but tuned nicely. You have to learn how to adapt and play differently, but that's the point. When I spec'd holy, I had a great time. I was able to use JoL as an effective heal, Beacon was useful when I used it, and throwing out HL's for aoe heals and hotting people up with FoL preemptively was pretty solid. I managed to place 2nd on heals in Hyjal with a few other people better geared than I am under me, especially on Anny and Azzy.
Prot seems to be in good shape, atm. I haven't found many parses or opinions on it, besides "suggestions." I have no issues currently, and don't foresee any problems.

Just give GC a break. He has 9 other classes to work on, too.

GC, are you guys going ahead with DPS, Tank, and Healer forums?

Would be good, imo.


---Ijin
Retribution
<Blacklist>
Dunemaul

---

Q u o t e:
I agree with the nerfs to burst. JotW on the other hand allowed a ret paladin function as it was supposed to for the first time in the history of wow. With the insane burst aside, paladins were able to deal damage while supporting their team mates in a real way. This is how the class has always been viewed in terms of role wise (a melee support class) but it's never really been able to do that until now. If you take away the regen the class has now, while gimping the burst, you turn the spec into nothing more then a gimp version of a warrior.

I've read many threads as you have GC, you can see most logical people are in support of the burst nerfs blizzard gave to the class. It's the JotW nerf that struck home, and if you push it forward the class will be nothing more then LOLRET for another expansion. The class is missing the fundamental traits every other melee class has, it needs some sort of an identity. Being a support/melee class was unique and very interesting. Please don't take that away.

To the people who say mashing your abilities on cd takes no skill. You're right, it doesn't take any skill to do that. However, it does take skill to pay attention to everything a DPS class, while also paying attention to everything a healing class does and then using your skill accordingly. Deciding the perfect ground between playing too defensively and too offensively isn't easy and it requires a skilled player to determine which is better at the proper moment. If JotW goes live in it's current beta state, this aspect will be removed completely, and with the amount mana drains do in this game, it will effectively remove the spec from ever dreaming of doing competitive pvp.

---

Ehhh... Even though JOTW made the class somewhat of a 'Melee' class the thing is that melee classes don't benefit from this like a paladin does. Both warriors and rogues both have to stop and have 'Downtime' when they get low health but in the case of paladins having a full mana pool and an actual way to heal themselves while trying to be a melee class does not work. Being able to have little or NO downtime means the class is capable of what almost every class is not (maybe not a enhance shaman for pve atleast). Blizz does not want to make a class have this kind of capability because it means that a mana using class will not have to manage their mana which ALL mana users are ment to do and that just contradicts a mana class.

Even though Ret's want to be a 'Melee' class they are incapable of doing so because you have a mana pool and that is what the class is ment to have. Although they could somehow make Ret a Shadowform type spec since priests have a negative benefit from doing dps with that spec which allows them not to heal and whatnot.

just try to balance us for a change and dont leave us sitting on the short bus ignore thee qq or any of that crap i refuse to roll another class i always enjoyed playing my pally but if im a joke for it ill go play sega either way im going to get laughed at and at least i can play sonic stoned, i have faith that your not going to leave us crippled to buff us before the next expansion then nerf us right before it comes out i want to be useful ive been shunned for bieng prot then shunned for bieng ret were a joke of your empire and it hurts realy