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Ghostcrawler
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  • 0. Retribution nerfs in the latest beta build 3   10/26/2008 05:36:47 PM PDT
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I know many of you asked good questions before the posts hit their limit. I am not convinced that my answering many of these questions would calm anyone down, but I'll give it a shot. If not, when the paladin community has gotten it all out of their system, I'll still be here.

Also realize that there are probably a couple hundred questions at this point and I can't answer them all. Here are a few common themes:

I thought we were supposed to be bursty?
Yes, that's the design. It's also a tough design to nail because if you're too bursty the opponent doesn't even get to respond.

You reviewed our class last because you don't care.
We overhauled the entire class. We rebuilt the way Seals and Judgements work, and by and large it's a good change. Paladins got a lot of attention for Lich King. your response suggests to me that the correct way to balance the game in the future is to make a class terrible early on and then buff it so that players are happy and excited instead of fuming and disappointed. Trajectory is everything.

I thought you didn't want us to run out of mana.
We didn't want you to run out of mana in three hits, especially in a sustained dps fight. What we don't want is for a paladin to kill someone and move on to the next enemy without losing any mana. I'm a little surprised so many people deny this was going on or that it was a problem.

We think we have your mana in a good place now, but mana is one of those aspects of the game that requires a lot of adjustment and there are many classes right now who would still like us to further review how mana is working for their class. If you're running out of mana too fast, believe me, we'll hear about it and we'll adjust it if we weren't "surgical" enough this time around.

But we don't care about Battlegrounds.
A lot of people do care. And if you don't care about them right now, I'll warrant that's because they don't offer the rewards that Arenas or raiding do. This is something we want to address in the future.

Again, though, we think Ret was out of line in several situations. Other classes are OP in some situations too, and we have either recently nerfed them or are still discussing how we want to address those classes as well.

Look at all the other classes in here laughing at us.
Well, they're jerks. Many of them probably suspect they are OP too and have so far escaped the nerfbat. So far. We want Retribution to be a dangerous class to go up against. We don't want to see BGs with 30 Retadins on one side, which is actually something we were seeing. Yeah, I know it sucks that people say Lolet. It sucks when people say huntards too. That doesn't drive people away from playing either class. We're always going to have some amount of competition in this game, either directly in PvP or the damage race in PvE. If I can read 1200 angry posts from Ret pallies today, you can blow off some inane gloating from warlocks or warriors. We delete the trolling comments when we see them.

Why didn't we compensate Holy and Protection first?
We want Holy to have better dps than it did in BC, but that's a secondary consideration compared to them being good at healing (which we believe they are). We are also still committed to Protection being able to tank anything that a warrior can. Consider that the boss armor changes hurts warrior threat more than it does paladin threat. The net result should hopefully come out equal. So far I'm not aware of a boss fight in the game where a paladin MT struggles. As I said, though, this is something we're working on right now.

Why did I describe our initial attempts to nerf Ret as surgical?
Because that's what we tried to do. In retrospect, we were so worried about nerfing Ret too much that we ended up not fixing the problem. We should have done more sweeping changes initially.

Why did we say Ret was fine for so long?
Because we didn't want to have to nerf the spec. Ret players were having fun. We thought and hoped that some well publicized bugs were to blame for the excess damage. As I've said, if I wait to post until we're absolutely 100% certain, you're just not going to get as many posts. Many posters have said they appreciate getting occasional developer communication and insight. But that is going to come with some risk that things are going to change. As I said, I'll caveat it more in the future.

That you're somehow paying to beta test the game.
First, I don't really think we'll ever get game balance to a state where 90% of you would say "Yes, it's perfect! Don't touch a thing!" Second, it's an MMO. Things change. The game evolves. We are always going to be changing things on our end as well. Players would be just as happy as not enough changes as some of you are with too many changes.

You may also have noticed that we nerfed level 70 raiding and that the level 80 raids are pretty easy compared to our past instances. We wanted to make sure we weren't shining too harsh a light on balance differences until everyone had plenty of time to get used to the changes -- more time than even our large beta can offer. Nobody should get parked at the curb in Naxx, and by the time Ulduar and later instances come on line, I predict we will have made many balance changes.

We don't believe you because we've been at the bottom of the barrel before.
There's not much I can do to get you to believe me or not. I try to be honest so my words carry some weight, but I also try to joke around a little so you know I don't take myself too seriously. I don't know how many other ways to say that it sucks that your PvE wasn't competitive in BC or that you weren't a major Arena force. That's not where we wanted you to end up and not where we want you to end up this time. I'm not going to show you my daily tasks or how I spend my time so that you can oversee my progress and make sure it doesn't happen again. Sorry. The best thing you can do is point out situations where you're struggling so we can investigate. Most of you haven't even had a chance to test with these changes yet.

You're nerfing paladins because of PvP.
Read my initial post again. Ret PvE dps was also too high.

Our numbers are different from yours.
That's going to happen. We compare data when we can. I think you'd agree that the game balance would be pretty interesting if we automatically made adjustments whenever anyone suggested them.

You said I wouldn't get banned.
You're still going to get banned for explicit language, death threats or the like (thank you very much for those BTW). Try and make your point without resorting to text that will violate the posting regulations. Call me a jerk, if it will make you feel better. It boggles my mind that I actually need to point out that AIDS comments and the like aren't appropriate. If you're smart enough to raid or do Arenas on your character, you're smart enough to know how to make an intelligent post.

Added one more for clarification:

You only tested in Naxx, but paladins do bonus damage against undead.
Yes, we know that. We tested under a lot of different situations with and without undead and with different levels of gear and buffs present. I use Patchwerk as an example a lot because players understand that it is a very simple boss fight in which there is no running around, adds or damage to the raid.

[ Post edited by Ghostcrawler ]

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  • 7. Re: Retribution nerfs in the latest beta buil   10/26/2008 05:39:34 PM PDT
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Every class is bursty, its hard to heal through any of them.
Give ret paladins something they can use to defeat an enemy, survivability, longevity is what the class description is based off of, but we have none.

You did a good job in 3.0 giving us utility, healing and damage in one tree.
This is not needed.

Just like with feral druids or enhancement shaman, healing isn't something we need to worry about so much.

Give us a gimmick(aka utility), slap on a *%!!ton of dps or burst, one or the other, and call it a day.

Retribution does not need to be anything but a damage oriented tree.

AND STOP BASING ALL PALADIN ABILITIES AROUND AP AND RET GEAR.

Holy paladins are people too!
I would like to go back to being a holy paladin.

[ Post edited by Gordonfreman ]


http://www.ctprofiles.net/view_profile.ct?pid=199442
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  • 9. Re: Retribution nerfs in the latest beta buil   10/26/2008 05:39:47 PM PDT
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GC,

First of all I have been playing in Murmur as Rueben all weekend since this patch hit. Initially I gave these changes the benefit of the doubt and decided to try to seriously play 2v2 and 3v3.

Before I explain my experience, I must get state something - while I don't doubt your intentions I do doubt that you understand the implications of the JOTW nerf in arena play. While you curtly dismissed the general concern that arenas are more serious than BG's with the bolded tagline "but I don't care about BG's," the fact remains that arenas were DESIGNED for the upper echelon players to duke it out and find out who is the best.

Therefore, paladins are more concerned about how they are balanced in arena rather than BG's because arenas are where the most skilled players meet to determine who is the best in a ranked system. This was Blizzard's intention, no?

That being said, jotw at 15% just doesn't cut it. Even if we don't consider mana burn or a dispell on divine plea, 15% just isn't enough for us to maintain a suitable DPS rotation (CS, DS, judge) and use our utility. We can quickly oom ourselves just by using instant FoL's and hands when they are on cooldown. We can't really even use holy light now because the huge mana deficit will put us way behind on damage, and we will lose the pressure war as we struggle to regain mana.

Now, when you add a dispeller or burner into the mix [pick one: warlock (both), priest (both), shaman, hunter (both)] the equation becomes downright frightening. One burn from a priest can throw me off completely to the point of no return. Arena is about pressure vs pressure. Mana burn effects are so devastating to the ret paladin's ability to output pressure with a 15% jotw that one cast can easily turn the tide of battle and end us.

Tell me GC, is that intended to be balanced?

[ Post edited by Rueben ]

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  • 10. Re: Retribution nerfs in the latest beta buil   10/26/2008 05:39:48 PM PDT
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Will someone please do this test for me:

Go on the beta with the 15% JotW, and actually test, under a variety of conditions (both self and raid buffed) to see how long various DPS rotations hold up before going OOM.

We need cold hard facts, not just conjecture.

[ Post edited by Heapify ]

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  • Turalyon
  • 12. Re: Retribution nerfs in the latest beta buil   10/26/2008 05:40:02 PM PDT
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Q u o t e:
I thought we were supposed to be bursty?
Yes, that's the design. It's also a tough design to nail because if you're too bursty the opponent doesn't even get to respond.


I am fine with the Burst damage change. I completely agree that this will make PvE Paladins happy to change from being a burst, to a slow damage over time. In PvP, the actually good paladins will shine no matter what the change is. Or at least, paladins that know how to play their class.



Q u o t e:
I thought you didn't want us to run out of mana.
We didn't want you to run out of mana in three hits, especially in a sustained dps fight. What we don't want is for a paladin to kill someone and move on to the next enemy without losing any mana. I'm a little surprised so many people deny this was going on or that it was a problem.

We think we have your mana in a good place now, but mana is one of those aspects of the game that requires a lot of adjustment and there are many classes right now who would still like us to further review how mana is working for their class. If you're running out of mana too fast, believe me, we'll hear about it and we'll adjust it if we weren't "surgical" enough this time around.


I can agree that our mana regeneration was too high. If I got too low on mana, I could pop Seal of Wisdom and use Judgment of Wisdom on a mob, and get back to 50% mana in no time as Ret.

That aside.. will the Seal of Wisdom change affect Holy paladin DPS while leveling to 80? Because of right now, I run out of mana quickly as a Holy paladin DPSing the scourge invasion monsters. I ran out of mana quicker than a mage! Just don't forget the other talent trees when nerfing the Ret tree, because some of these nerfs affected the other talents as well.

[ Post edited by Tumpys ]

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  • 14. Re: Retribution nerfs in the latest beta buil   10/26/2008 05:40:51 PM PDT
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GC I'm concerned about Holy DPS. I don't want to respec to ret whenever I'm not raiding to do dailies or farm or whatever. The split co-efficients for AP and SP on all our seals meant we hit for very little. Granted the reduced CD and increased damage on holy shock was a nice help, but now you're handing out another big nerf to seals, which is where Holy was already hurting pretty badly.

"TO THE GROUND BABY! Okay, not really, but sometimes I can't resist." --GC 10/15/08 on nerfing ret.

"NOT!" --GC 10/24/08 impersonating Borat.
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Ham
  • Gorefiend
  • 15. Re: Retribution nerfs in the latest beta buil   10/26/2008 05:41:04 PM PDT
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Q u o t e:
I thought you didn't want us to run out of mana.
We didn't want you to run out of mana in three hits, especially in a sustained dps fight. What we don't want is for a paladin to kill someone and move on to the next enemy without losing any mana. I'm a little surprised so many people deny this was going on or that it was a problem.



We know that having extra mana is a problem, but we want to be able to sustain a basic rotation for an untold amount of time like a warrior, a rogue, a feral druid of any form and an enhancement shaman can without having to rely on a 25 man raid to do so.

15% has been proven to be insufficient in this regard,while 33% is a bit high, I think the happy medium between these two is 25%. With Benediction, this gives us just amount of extra mana to reseal every 2 minutes while only using CS, DS, and judgement.

Doing anything extra SHOULD require managing. The only way to justify us to have to "pay attention" to our mana bars is to completely convert us to a range caster class. As melee, we have to worry about a considerable amount more than casters do. Ability cooldowns (which all of our offensive abilities have), the global cooldown which does limit how fast we can do said abilities and melee specific damage such as cleaves and whirwinds.

Adding mana management to all of that leads to unhappy players and frustration, however, being able to use all of our attacks willy nilly without having to worry about mana is goofy also.

[ Post edited by Ham ]

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  • 16. Re: Retribution nerfs in the latest beta buil   10/26/2008 05:41:12 PM PDT
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You know, I had a post listing out WHY these changes were bad.

There is no point.

Until WWS reports show us failing in healing and DPSing yet again.
Until Arena stats show us at the bottom of end game pvp yet again.

No one will listen or care.

This happened to us at launch.
This happened to us for our class review.
This happened to us for TBC Launch
This happened to us in every single season for PvP.
Now it's happening for WotLK.

Hey, no worries when Rogues, Warriors and Druids are at the top of the food chain again. I'm sure you'll address Paladins concerns by announcing they'll be fixed in the next expansion.

Congrats GC, you singlehandedly made lolret greater than ever.

Quite an achievement.

[ Post edited by Vilnius ]


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  • 17. Re: Retribution nerfs in the latest beta buil   10/26/2008 05:41:15 PM PDT
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Q u o t e:
Let's take a look at Chaz, in Naxxramas, who put out 4244 DPS on Patchwerk.

http://gwai.org/Stasis/Beta/sws-patchwerk-1224471301/index.html

Seal of the Martyr had a total decrease of 20% from coefficient nerfs in the next patch, along with the fact that judgements can no longer proc seals.

So his total damage from Seal of the Martyr went from 129,847 down to 99,203.108 damage. A net loss of 30643.892 total damage or 206.774 damage per second.

The seal nerf alone would have dropped him down the chart a fair bit. Holy wrath, no longer viable due to the high mana cost equated to a mere 69.55 DPS.

Exorcism equated to a grand total of 217.3 DPS.

Now Concecration, yet another non-viable option. 397.27 DPS.

Judgement of the Martyr! Net loss of 30000.8 damage, or 202.43 DPS.

1093.324 total DPS loss.

This puts Chaz at 3150.676 DPS. And that's in a short fight.

Now I'm not amazing at math, so please, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here.

EDIT: added up the the numbers wrong, turns out it's a hell of a bigger DPS loss than originally thought.

[ Post edited by Koore ]


Originally posted by me.

Keep in mind this is pre-change to RV/Boss armor.

So our DPS may be a little higher, but hell, not by much.

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  • Dragonmaw
  • 18. Re: Retribution nerfs in the latest beta buil   10/26/2008 05:41:27 PM PDT
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Look at all the other classes in here laughing at us.
Well, they're jerks. Many of them probably suspect they are OP too and have so far escaped the nerfbat



I love this reply

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TO THE GROUND
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