We've been told time and again that Hemo is not viable as a PvE build.

This is the first of posts where I'm going to try and dispel that myth.

It's hard to show that hemo can be competitive just by using math and spreadsheets. Combat and SS do dominate the base yellow DPS and DPE. I'm not trying to slight combat swords the least bit.

I'm just trying to show that hemo can be a viable build. I'm going to do it by comparing myself against other rogues.

I could do a compare/contrast using the same gear and a combat build, but that would gimp combat potency (I have a slow offhand). I also don't know the intricacies of combat swords as a spec. For both these reasons, attempting to test against myself would skew the results.

7/4/07
My hemo build is 16/21/24, a few nights ago in heroic underbog I was above the nearest DPS class by 10% TOTAL damage. Unfortunately, I didn't have a screenshot, so it never happened. However, this was against a rogue spec'd for PvP mutilate. So even if I got a screenshot, it would have been shot down for that reason.


Today, I went into regular Shattered Halls with one of our raiding rogues, a 10/41/10 Combat rogue on my server named Bloodshade. Bloodshade had a non-standard deep combat build.

Here is his armory profile:

http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/character-talents.xml?r=Steamwheedle+Cartel&n=Bloodshade

Here are the results of the run.

Me: 899.3K
Bloodshade: 881.1K

Here's the screenshot:

http://img399.imageshack.us/img399/9711/wowscrnshot070407170017lx1.jpg

Hybrid Hemo Haste Build 16/21/24: 1
Combat Sword Builds: 0

7/7/07
I've changed my build from 16/21/24 to 11/21/29 and added about 150 AP, I am focusing more on white damage. Currently my AP is at 1350. My crit and hit have improved a little bit.

I downloaded and installed SW Stats.

Last night I did heroic Bot against a 15/41/5 Combat Daggers (cookie cutter) rogue name Fists. Here is the profile.

http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/character-talents.xml?r=Steamwheedle+Cartel&n=Fists

I was thoroughly not expecting to win this round. In fact, this was the rogue I mentioned in one of the posts. He outgears me and has one of the more traditional combat specs.

We changed first place several times during the course of the instance on trash mobs. However, I would pull ahead or close the gap on boss fights, considering what people have been telling me about how AR would trash me and combat pot would leave me behind over the course of a longer fight I found this surprising.

I wish I had taken before and after pictures to show. I will next time. Live and learn.

Here is the Permission shot:
http://img523.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wowscrnshot070607233009jp6.jpg

Here is the final damage:
http://img523.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wowscrnshot070607232636ev3.jpg

Here is final party fight time determined DPS:
http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/6540/wowscrnshot070607233131me7.th.jpg

Here are raw numbers on mouse over:
http://img523.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wowscrnshot070607233051dz6.jpg - Me
http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/6471/wowscrnshot070607233056cv3.th.jpg - Fists

The score now against combat builds is 2-0. If anyone on SWC Horde side would like to help to produce additional data for the project, please feel free to send me a mail in game.

7/9/07:

Picked up warp splinter in my heroic bot run with fists. It was an upgrade and after trying it out, decided it would be a good upgrade.

Today I did heroic Slave Pens against a 19/42 Combat Swords rogue name Zowie. Here is the profile:

http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/character-talents.xml?r=Steamwheedle+Cartel&n=Zowie

Zowie outgears me by 2% Crit, and about 175AP base AP. Zowie's got enchants on weapons (+7 dmg, I don't have any because I've been lazy about it) and an hourglass (I'm still using bladesfist).

I went into this fight not expecting to win it.

And I didn't.

But how much was I off? I was expecting that given the offset in gear, I would be 95-97 percent of his damage. That to me is competitive.

I was right on the money. I had 96.15%.

Permission shot also shows final damage:
http://img223.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wowscrnshot070907213520oj9.jpg

Here is the DPS shot:
http://img502.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wowscrnshot070907213529zi7.jpg

Notice that in the dps shot, if you figure in the AP difference between us (175/14 is 12.5 DPS), and you add in 2% (the damage output upgrade from the crit) of the existing dps, you would see the damage come out in my favor. That's not including the additional 8% AP from deadliness.

11/21/24 vs Combat Swords -> Combat swords, but well within expected parameters due to gear difference.

7/14/2007 (Reported 7/16/2007):

Additional WWS data has come in regarding a variation of the 11/21/29 build. Ichipop at Elitist Jerks has posted WWS data for Gruul's with an 11/28/22. The data seems to back up findings.

The post and theory craft can be read here:

http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t14321-rogue_combat_vs_hemo_point_inflection/

Combat Daggers don't do that well against trash.
Mutilate should.

Combat Daggers should ALWAYS have Relentless and Ruthlesness, its the bread and butter of CP builiding of the spec.

Go up against a Combat swords spec'd rogue with equal gear and report back. Also tell us the DTPS for the run. For both him and you.

5man =/= dps

i could probably double your damage or more

and your friends build is awful because he doesnt have ruthlessness relentless lethality imp snd and he is using a felsteel longblade which is a terrible weapon for a rogue

your comparison is completely unrelated to doing dps in a raid setting where it matters

sorry to sound harsh but hemo and pve arent in the same sentence

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Q u o t e:
Combat Daggers don't do that well against trash.
Mutilate should.

Combat Daggers should ALWAYS have Relentless and Ruthlesness, its the bread and butter of CP builiding of the spec.

Go up against a Combat swords spec'd rogue with equal gear and report back. Also tell us the DTPS for the run. For both him and you.

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This was combat swords, and I was outgeared.

1. It's a 5 man instance

2.Your friend's spec sucks

3. It's a 5 man instance

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Q u o t e:
1. It's a 5 man instance

2.Your friend's spec sucks

3. It's a 5 man instance

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I actually lol'd at #3 but not #1... wierd.

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Q u o t e:
1. It's a 5 man instance

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and I bet the combat out dps'd u still on the boss fights.

Hemo has never been, and never will be, a competetive PvE spec.

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Q u o t e:
5man =/= dps

i could probably double your damage or more

and your friends build is awful because he doesnt have ruthlessness relentless lethality imp snd and he is using a felsteel longblade which is a terrible weapon for a rogue

your comparison is completely unrelated to doing dps in a raid setting where it matters

sorry to sound harsh but hemo and pve arent in the same sentence

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I will agree, 5man is different from raid, but many of the same elements appear in playstyle, it's just that fights are longer.

My comparison IS unrelated to DPS in a raid setting. You're repeating your same arguments.

However, this is the first post and that was not its intention. It's intention was to begin to show Hemo as a competitive PvE build.

The first step is to show that it's competitive on a base line. I'm hoping to keep this thread alive with more updates against more rogues.

I'll update this thread against different rogues with different builds as I come across them. This is simply the first post.

I'll update this thread with Heroic Instances as they appear, but having two of any class in a heroic usually spells disaster. However, I will try.

I'll update this thread with Kara on my next run, but I'm usually in a different raid group from our other rogues.

The question to ask next is how this plays out over more extended fights, which is where combat claims to shine.

5-mans are serious business.

The cold, hard truth is no one gives a damn if you beat a *very* poorly specced combat rogue who outgears you. It was a 5-man. Trash pulls = burst DPS =/= sustained DPS. Show some WWS reports of gruul or higher with you over a competent combat rogue running an accepted spec and we'll talk.

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Q u o t e:


I will agree, 5man is different from raid, but many of the same elements appear in playstyle, it's just that fights are longer.

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I stopped reading there...

that is where hemo can't touch combat, in longer boss fights. GG

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Q u o t e:
1. It's a 5 man instance

2.Your friend's spec sucks

3. It's a 5 man instance

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Heaven's sakes, it's a first post, and as I said, the beginings.

In ANY real world comparison, it's necessary to establish a base line. You're right, Bloods' build isn't optimal. However, he was who was available at the time, and he is closest gearwise to me.

Give it time.

Get a WWS of you beating any decently geared properly specced combat dagger / sword / mace / fist rogue in SSC, TK, Hyjal, or BT ON A BOSS FIGHT and I'll personally paypal you $500.

I'm not sure what's worse.

Your friend's spec or you not realizing that it's so bad that it has no basis as a standard to test ANYTHING by.

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Q u o t e:
Get a WWS of you beating any decently geared properly specced combat dagger / sword / mace / fist rogue in SSC, TK, Hyjal, or BT ON A BOSS FIGHT and I'll personally paypal you $500.

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It's going to be a little while. I consider myself barely spec'd for pre-kara. I'll hope to hold you to it.

But that's the point of gathering a lot of data. Someone posted above that initial damage was based on burst. This build isn't based on burst, I have a 2% lower crit rate than the rogue I ran with, there's nothing in the build that frontloads the damage except for the reduced cost of hemo.

Rather than have people just say hemo isn't viable again and again, take this as the first post and consider it interesting data, and while you don't agree, you're willing to keep an open mind if I present the data.

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Q u o t e:
I'm not sure what's worse.

Your friend's spec or you not realizing that it's so bad that it has no basis as a standard to test ANYTHING by.

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Baselines aren't established on just one fight. They're established by basing over a body of data, that's multiple samplings.

This is the first. That's all it is.

I'm confident you won't on any fight more than 5 minutes simply because of Adrenaline Rush and Combat Potency as well as weapon specs.

OMG OMG OMG NOWWWWW YOU'VE DONE IT!..... your friend's spec just made my EYES BLEED!

10/41/10 is a build?

im not sure whats worse hes build or hes gear

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Q u o t e:
This is the first. That's all it is.

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Using such a horrible example as your first is setting yourself up for failure.

It's like saying "I'm gonna do some test games to show that I'm good at soccer wearing panythose! My first game is against this three year old with a club foot. I barely beat him, but it's just the first game!"