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Q u o t e:


Oddly enough, it doesn't even correctly match 10 / 1.3 (should be 7.69 seconds), but that may be attributable to the tooltip system's notorious inaccuracy due to weird rounding.

Here's a theory:

3 - (3 / 1.3) = 0.6923

2.5 = 0.6923 = 1.81

Nope, that doesn't work either. I was wondering if perhaps the haste was affecting the spell's base casting time instead of its talented casting time.

Edit: Wait, I messed up. Faxmonkey is getting 1.8 cast times, not 1.75. This could be the answer.

If so, then Berserking should produce Fireball cast times of 2.69 seconds untalented, or 2.19 seconds talented.

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My bad. That was a typo, I was in a rush.

The actual cast time was indeed 7.69, not 7.68.


Logging in to test with Quag's Eye. Results in 5 or 10 minutes.

Cast time is 2.17 with max rank frostbolt, 0.868 with rank 1, with Quag's Eye procced.

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Q u o t e:


My bad. That was a typo, I was in a rush.

The actual cast time was indeed 7.69, not 7.68.


Logging in to test with Quag's Eye. Results in 5 or 10 minutes.

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Someone else already did. I accepted that i was wrong. Troll Berserking does indeed function in the manner i described, but its apparently the only thing that does.

Well, that's what I get for not reading page 4 :p

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Q u o t e:


Someone else already did. I accepted that i was wrong. Troll Berserking does indeed function in the manner i described, but its apparently the only thing that does.

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Wow, so math shows that a full-powered Troll Beserking is equivalent to 891.4 haste rating (with the current 20.8 = 1% rule... it will be 672.9 haste rating after the new formula takes effect).

If the character creation screen said "Troll Berkerking: grants up to 891 spell haste" I think people would be dumbfounded.

Haste does NOT reduce the GCD. Multiple tests have shown this.

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Q u o t e:


Ahh, One of my favorite mages....Two actually (Lhivera)

You people represent the mage community wonderfully and i'd like to shed some information. Drozz you are completely incorrect when you say we are limited to the GCD. I can spam 1.1 second scorches with quags eyehaste rings, with berserking its even more ridiculous. Haste reduces the GCD but the amount I am guessing is as if it was a 1.5 s spell, if so then we may be seeing a possible nerf in the future because just as before there was a minor gap between mages and warlocks. This gap increased when the expansion came out. I'm foreseeing it happening again and i see the same thing happening to haste rating. There will be much better haste itemization in WOTLK that we CAN see the true potential of haste and combining that with things like Bloodlust and Troll Berserking i foresee alot of complaints and alot of devastation by mages, warlocks and shadowpriests alike.

P.S. I had an hourlong chat with a GM the other day and she is a HUGE fan of you fax, I wish i screenie'd it lol.

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Zaldinar has gone to great lengths to prove that the GCD is not reduced while under the effects of haste. Rather, it is the ability to circumvent lag while hasted that is what you perceive.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=965509274

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Q u o t e:
Gee, that blows.

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I'm glad to see you finally see the light. All of this was explained a few pages ago... again, people can spam 1.1 sec scorches without getting any issues with the global cooldown because they have a) at least 200ms latency and are not using a stopcasting macro with Quartz, b) hesitate 0.4 seconds before hitting the button again, c) a combination of the two.

Only a select few spells are off the GCD. Those that are on it cannot bypass it.

A quick test for those with stopcasting/Quartz... get a shaman buddy to give you heroism/bloodlust... spam scorch. You will get "That Spell Is Not Ready Yet" every time you attempt to recast it. If you are a troll, you can test it with Berserking, or, better yet, both Berserking/Bloodlust combined to really see the pause you have to take.

Haha, Fax... I was actually JUST about to write a post on this very topic, wondering whether or not spell haste gear was worth it or not (trying to decide if lesser casting time was worth the huge sacrifices in crit, etc). Glad I checked for similar posts before I posted mine :<

I'll be keeping a close eye on this debate, 'cause haste seems like a fun stat ;)

Heres an interesting tidbit to add into this discussion. I just wrote it into my data collection addon to record the actual cast time reported to the cast bar using the UnitCastingInfo (http://www.wowwiki.com/API_UnitCastingInfo) function while casting under heroism and got some odd results.

Pyroblast, 6 second cast, 4.615 second cast bar time
Scorch, 1.5 second cast, 1.154 second cast bar time
Flamestrike, 2.75 second cast (2 piece incanters bonus), 2.115 second cast bar time

4.615 / 6 = .7692
1.154 / 1.5 = .7693
2.115 / 2.75 = .7691

So, heroism is a 23.18%-ish gain? not 30%?

Doing the same on my premade with a Quags Eye looking for a proc.

Scorch, 1.5 second cast, 1.247 second cast bar time
Untalented Fireball, 3.5 second cast, 2.910 second cast bar time
Flamestrike, 3.0 second cast, 2.494 second cast bar time

1.247 / 1.5 = .8313
2.910 / 3.5 = .8314
2.494 / 3.0 = .8313

So 320 spell haste turns into a 16.87% spell casting increase, or 18.96 haste rating per percent of increase observed.


And for FaxMonkeys benefit, using my level 6 troll I created for the GCD test, at full health zerking I had a 1.5 second fireball in 1.364.

1.364 / 1.5 = .9093

Or a 9.07% reduction.

And at 11 / 137 health a 1.5 second fireball is 1.154.

1.154 / 1.5 = .7693

Or a 23.07% reduction.



I have no haste effects on my mage that can interact with my shammy, loading a new premade mage into that account to test both at the same time, will be interesting to see the results of the two interacting.

I'm rather confused by these results, the method correctly identifies all the normal cast times of spells, Pyro is 6000 msec, Untalented fireball 3500 msec etc. The Heroism and Troll Zerking results have me questioning my method, but I can't think of any better way to directly view the cast time of the spell than the number being fed to the base cast bar.

Wow, they really streamlined the premade process a lot. Already got one in there. This will turn into the first post in another research thread soon, but I want some feedback before I do that (since this thread is probably more visible than my thread will be)

With Heroism + Haste a 1.5 second scorch became a .959 scorch.

1.5 * .7691 * .8313 = .9590

Looks like we have a winner, multiplicative reductions.


Edit: upon rereading the thread a bit I noticed some discussion about talented vs untalented nukes for cast speed reduction.

Untalented Fireball was 2.910 under Quags Eye, 5/5 imp just read at 2.494, the same as stock flamestrike at a 3 second cast.

Untalented Frostbolt came out to be 2.494, and 5/5 imp 2.078, which conforms to the pattern of .8312ish.

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Q u o t e:

Pyroblast, 6 second cast, 4.615 second cast bar time
Scorch, 1.5 second cast, 1.154 second cast bar time
Flamestrike, 2.75 second cast (2 piece incanters bonus), 2.115 second cast bar time

4.615 / 6 = .7692
1.154 / 1.5 = .7693
2.115 / 2.75 = .7691

So, heroism is a 23.18%-ish gain? not 30%?

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Heroism is a 30% increase in Haste... NOT a 30% reduction in cast time. This is what we were trying to figure out throughout the whole thread. We concluded that both haste rating and heroism/bloodlust act like haste in that they increase the amount of casting by x% in a given amount of time. We also concluded that for some reason, the Troll's Berserking ability is the only thing to act like a reduction in cast time.

What this means:
With Heroism, you should be casting 1.3 pyroblasts in the time someone else casts 1. You were casting them at 4.615sec. 6.0 / 4.615 = 1.3. As you can see, you would get off 1.3 pyroblasts in the time it took the normal guy to get off 1.

So 30% haste (or heroism) results in a 23ish% reduction in cast time as you've calculated.

Berserking is unique and its "30%" (assuming full-powered) does in fact reduce casting time by 30% meaning you take the original cast time and multiply by 0.7. This means with berserking, the caster will get off 1.42 spells in the time a normal guy got off 1 (a 42% increase in Haste). So Berserking > Bloodlust/Heroism = 30% Haste.

Oh, well there you have it then. Should have tried dividing the other way and noticed the coincidence.

But you are incorrect about Troll Zerking:

1.5 / 1.154 = 1.2998
1.5 / 1.364 = 1.0997

10% and 30%. Zerking == Heroism == 30% haste

Edit: The numbers, I transpose them

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Q u o t e:
Oh, well there you have it then. Should have tried dividing the other way and noticed the coincidence.

But you are incorrect about Troll Zerking:

1.5 / 1.154 = 1.2998
1.5 / 1.364 = 1.0997

10% and 30%. Zerking == Heroism == 30% haste

Edit: The numbers, I transpose them

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Troll Berserking is a spectrum from 10% to 30%... it's very likely that amount of health and level of character has something to do with it, and therefore your numbers are different. Here's a video that Faxmonkey has posted (Post #67 in the thread).

http://files.filefront.com/zerktestwmv/;8347254;;/fileinfo.html

It clearly shows an 8 second cast going to 5.6 seconds, and a 10 second cast going to 7 seconds... both of which are 30% reductions in cast time (or 1.42 casts in the normal cast time).

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Q u o t e:
Oh, well there you have it then. Should have tried dividing the other way and noticed the coincidence.

But you are incorrect about Troll Zerking:

1.5 / 1.154 = 1.2998
1.5 / 1.364 = 1.0997

10% and 30%. Zerking == Heroism == 30% haste

Edit: The numbers, I transpose them

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I suppose I could repeat the test on PTR to make sure its not different there. It's relatively easy to just fall off my flying mount till I'm under 50% hp, pop zerking, and look at some spell tooltips.

Edit: Wow, you're right. It's nerfed on PTR. Lovely. Trolls clearly needed nerfing because everyone rolls troll -- lol.

I Guess I can't really complain since it probably was meant to have been nerfed a long with everything else back in 1.12. Hell though, that didn't even seem to be 30% haste, let alone 30% casting reduction. In 3 minutes I'll get some exact numbers.

Edit #2:
7.69 Telport , 2.31 Frostbolt

Yeah, those are Haste numbers. It is the same as Bloodlust on PTR. I suppose I might as well make a thread on the Test realms complaining, but I'm sure it'll do no good. I imagine its just a "bug fix" but I think the idea of nerfing trolls is just silly.

Edit #3:
Just to be clear, its 2.31 becuase my frostbolts on PTR on untalented. I've been screwing around with arcane missile spam + Mystical Skyfire Diamond. :)

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Q u o t e:


I suppose I could repeat the test on PTR to make sure its not different there. It's relatively easy to just fall off my flying mount till I'm under 50% hp, pop zerking, and look at some spell tooltips.

Edit: Wow, you're right. It's nerfed on PTR. Lovely. Trolls clearly needed nerfing because everyone rolls troll -- lol.

I Guess I can't really complain since it probably was meant to have been nerfed a long with everything else back in 1.12. Hell though, that didn't even seem to be 30% haste, let alone 30% casting reduction. In 3 minutes I'll get some exact numbers.

Edit #2:
7.69 Telport , 2.31 Frostbolt

Yeah, those are Haste numbers. It is the same as Bloodlust on PTR. I suppose I might as well make a thread on the Test realms complaining, but I'm sure it'll do no good. I imagine its just a "bug fix" but I think the idea of nerfing trolls is just silly.

Edit #3:
Just to be clear, its 2.31 becuase my frostbolts on PTR on untalented. I've been screwing around with arcane missile spam + Mystical Skyfire Diamond. :)

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Well, that would explain what Zaldinar saw. It's definitely a nerf to trolls, but was probably only a correction to an oversight in the first place. At least all "speed up" calculations are consistent with each other now. So as Zaldinar posted... on the PTR:

Heroism/Bloodlust = Berserking = 30% haste (471 spell haste rating) = 1.3 casts in the time it normally takes for 1 cast.

Sorry to see the nerf though.

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Q u o t e:


Well, that would explain what Zaldinar saw. It's definitely a nerf to trolls, but was probably only a correction to an oversight in the first place. At least all "speed up" calculations are consistent with each other now. So as Zaldinar posted... on the PTR:

Heroism/Bloodlust = Berserking = 30% haste (471 spell haste rating) = 1.3 casts in the time it normally takes for 1 cast.

Sorry to see the nerf though.

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Long-standing oversights are supposed to be grandfathered in!

Blessing of Sacrifice still breaks CC. Blink still avoids falling damage. Beastslaying is still 5% extra damage *and* 5% extra crit damage. Counterspell is back on the global cooldown.

Once it becomes part of the fabric of the game, Blizzard has to let it stay! It's a damn rule!