Many in this forum had heard about the approach our guild was taking to the transition from a level 60 raiding guild to a level 70 raiding guild and has asked to be updated on it. I have also seen a lot of posts that have questions concerning the issues that MANY casual raiding guilds are facing right now. This post’s purpose is two fold – to update those who asked about the process we used and to have one solution (one begin ours - not the only one out there by any means) to point to when the questions come up (so I do not retype the same thing again an again – call me lazy ).

This will be long so bear with me on it…

First off – I am not stating that this is the way to approach the transition into TBC, it is simply an approach that has worked for us and it is a LOT of work. Keep in mind we are a guild that has a casual approach to raiding and our definition of “casual” is that we are not pushing to be server firsts and we have players who’s schedules vary greatly. We still have some fairly hardcore people who play and many of us raid 4 – 5 days a week.

Some will see the following process as stupidly excessive but some may find, as we have, that it actually works and helps to organize a vast amount of information and give you a clearer picture of who you are as a guild, who your players are and what the expectations are. Knowing all of this allows you to make plans that have a higher success rate and is less frustrating for all involved

Where we were pre TBC:

We were a casual raiding guild with approx 130 players, about 20 - 30 of those I would consider hard core raiders. We had ZG, AQ20, Onyxia, MC, BWL on farm status and were working on Skeram in AQ40. 99% of our players were level 60, some who had leveled with us form the start and others who had been added later in our progression. We tend to guild a lot of family and friends (all 18 and over) and rarely recruit outside of the guild.

We had three classification ranks for players which were:

Incarnate: Raiding
Member: Future raiders who would fill in as needed on nights when we were missing players/classes
Casual: Friends and family – non raiding rank

Where we are now:

We still have around 130 players; around 90% are at 70. Some of our hard core raiders are still leveling paladins and some have take a break from the game, through recruiting we have pretty much filled in those gaps though we are lacking in warlocks right now. We currently have 2 static Karazahn teams that run a set schedule each week and a third formed that will start next week. We have been working on Grull’s Lair and have been in there three times now with a non static group and have made some progress though we have not yet downed the first boss. Many people are running heroics and working on their higher keys.

How we handled the transition 60 - 70:

TBC was a very new situation for many in our guild not only because it was new itself but a large part of the membership had not leveled as the guild had leveled from 1 – 60. Many of our members had come into the guild when the majority was 60 and raiding. We had a lot of time to help people back then; we would grab a player w/o their keys and take them through the process in a day as we had all the time in the world. When TBC went live those that had always helped others were now helping themselves and it was a bumpy transition as those that had always had a surplus of people to help them now found themselves competing with others for groups.

I have a lot of talks (I am huge on communication and like to hear the sound of my own voice a lot – a deadly combo!!!) with the guild and we have had more during the past 4 months TBC has been out than we have in a while. Many of the players who had come into the guild late in our progression in 40 man and game and I spent a lot of time talking about the luxuries of leveling with a bunch of 60s with time on their hands and the fact that we were all leveling again and the luxury would no longer be there. We have a LFG forum which I encouraged all to post in looking for groups and those that have found great success in getting the groups they have needed.

Along with all the talks with the guild were many posts from myself and Mok, updating members on progress, reminding people to use LFG forum and planning ahead for runs, reminding them all to be good to one another and keep the game and who we are in perspective and answering all question we were given as thoroughly as possible. We let people know we knew they were frustrated and we were frustrated, it is a very natural thing to be resistant to change and not like it – it is uncomfortable. No one was ever alone in the transitioning.

(cont)

Mok and I were in the first group to hit 70. We chose to level quickly for two reasons. First – we had leveled slowly to 60 (we had quite a few 60s before us) and thought it would be fun to take some time of work and really immerse ourselves in the game and see how fast we could get to 70. Secondly, we needed to be at 70 and heading into Karazahn to evaluate how our guild would react to it and what the best approach would be to getting the players in there that wanted to be.

In February we flattened the classifications of player ranks into 2 in preparation of raiding in The Burning Crusade:

Incarnate: Raiding (those who wish to raid on a regular basis)
Casual: Non raiding (those who may raid once in a great while but are not on the regular raiding rotation)

To decide who fell into what ranks we did what we refer to as the “Resurrection Census” which I will talk about in a bit ;)


The Karazahn Dilemma: making the plan

A good friend, Kreappe, fellow Skywallian and one smart cookie posted in this guild that the anxiety around Gruul’s lair was not what raiding guilds should be concerned about, the bigger challenge was going to be Karazahn. He was correct. Many players had a vision of an UBRS with a 7 day lock out, it is anything but. I like the killer rabbit analogy from Monty Python, from afar it looks like a fluffy bunny but up close it has very large teeth and can kill ;)

So here we have a dungeon that’s mobs are on par with BWL and Naxx in complexity that only allows 10 people in it and locks those 10 and any other players into it for 7 days. For raiding guilds it was not a huge issue, they have the players that had the time to invest and show up when they say they will and are used to really pushing the content. What about the casual folks though who never had the same 40 people form night to night and those of us that could easily turn over 20 players in the SAME night? How were we to ever be successful in Karazahn? It became very clear to us that our “Hey just show up and raid!”, approach was no longer going to work and that we would have to change the way we approached raiding.

We knew from raiding in Karazahn that there was a pretty decent learning curve and swapping people in and out nightly or even weekly while trying to learn the instance was going to be an exercise in futility. We needed to assemble groups that would learn to work together in the raiding environment that did not have constantly shifting dynamics and the need to re-explain the fight each time you came to it. In a guild that is full of people with busy lives outside of WoW – how do you do that? How do you build a semi hard core guild out of casual players? Enter the “Resurrection Census”…


The Census . getting to know our players better

Looking at a guild with over 100+ players, many who wish to raid, who have play schedules all over the place, is overwhelming. Add to that the class imbalances and off specs and it make you want to run for the hills! These things never really mattered in a 40 man as we could run with the most bizarre group set ups and we find even in Karazahn we are really good at making odd groups work, but 4 prot warriors, 2 feral druids, 3 mages, and 1 priest is not going to make it too far… We had to determine what our human resources were and what their availability was to begin to start putting the pieces together which lead to our guild census.

We let the guild know we were going to be talking to each of them individually and that their answer would determine their placement in the Kara groups. We also let them know that saying no now did not mean they would never raid. We were open and honest that the results could indicate we needed to bring in more players to put together solid groups but that we would keep it at a minimum to avoid overpopulation. Most of all we assured them we would not forget about them, that as the Kara groups became more progressed and were able to get the run times down that we would be able to bring in some of our much more casual players so their limited time would be quality time in the raids. We saw no reason to have people who could only make it once a week to spend the entire time wiping. What we needed in return from them was open communication and honesty about what we could realistically expect their availability to be.

We asked 4 questions of all of our players (to date we are about 95% done, we still have a few people to catch up with). Before we asked the questions we asked our players to really think about their answers and be as honest as possible. We also let people know that saying “no” to raiding now did not mean they could not revisit it in the future. The questions are as follows:

(cont)

Are you interested in raiding in Karazahn?

As a leader I was sometimes surprised that this answer was “no” from many of our raiding folk. Some of the players we have that had raided with us in 40 mans had had changes in their lives that did not allow them to spend much time in game anymore. Others simply chose to take their time and explore all that TBC has to offer.

Are you keyed/geared for Karazahn?

For those who were keyed, we recommended they spend their time in game upgrading their gear to enhance their spec. We also recommended they read about Karazahn and listen in on the current group while they were raiding.

What is your true availability (what nights can you NEVER make it and what nights would you rather not raid)?

This was the toughest for our players, accessing the time the have available to raid in Karazahn. We have some awesome players who are very realistic about their playtime and many of them from the oringal 40 man raid group and still wnaitng to raid but not having the time to devote to Karazahn currently.

What are your goals in game?

For some it was raiding, for others it was exploring. It was nice to know what our players considered “fun” in game and they put a lot of thought into it.

We took all of this info and created matrixs for each class that then showed us people’s availability. It has proven to be an amazing visual tool to allow us to see at a glance what nights players can commit to raiding.

While the census took a while to complete, it has given us priceless information about our guilded players. What they are looking for in game, what their playtimes can be and what there expectations are. As we add players to our guild we add them to the matrix and input their info as well. It is a good feeling to know that people understand the process and for them to know where they are as individuals in the process. It alleviates a lot of stress and feelings of being left behind when they know what the plan is and it DOES included them.

During the census we let people know what we expected from them as raiders which is as follows:

1.) You must be able to make your scheduled raid time consistently which will be 3 nights a week for 3 – 4 hours scheduled in advance (once the schedule is agreed upon and set it will remain as set each week)

2.) If you need to take an evening off you must contact the group leader 24 hours in advance to allow them to get a replacement. If you constantly miss raid times you will be removed form the group to allow another in who can make it.

3) Your gear should be of a level that allows for your survivability in Karazahn. Guidelines were given for the various classes and specs.

4) You need to be coming prepared with consumables: mana and health pots (we suggest a min stack of 20), foods, reagents, bandages, elixirs and so on.

5) You need to be able to afford the repair bills

6) You need to be willing to read up on strats and continue to better your character outside of Karazahn via gear, enchants, glyphs and so on.

7) Have the patience of a saint, take a serious approach to the events and have the ability to shake off the wipes and get back in there with a positive attitude.


Putting together the groups:

The first Karazahn group had made it up to and including Aran in about a month raiding 3 nights a week for about 3 – 4 hours at a time. Still a fairly casual raid schedule, one that did not make any of us feels really confined by it. We were happy with our progression and decided to split the group up at this time and create 2 new groups, each one with 5 veteran Kara raiders and 5 new Kara raiders. So why split the original group? We did not want one uber group and one starting at square one. We are one guild, not a few small 10 man guilds under 1 name. We look to help one another – not compete, so it made sense to split the group to allow for an equal balance and the ability to play with other players and classes.

The two groups are known as “Mok’s group” and “Ongo’s group” (Ok we call them something else but these names work here ;))as we did not want to use anything that could be quantified and signify one being better than the other. The groups have been running for about a month now, one group has downed Prince and is working on Netherspite and the other group is attempting Aran so they are pretty close in progression.

(Cont)

Next week the third group will enter Karazahn. Again we have assembled it using the info we have to fit the players and classes together that have the same availability and can make up a well balanced group. We will make some slight modifications to the existing groups but for the most part they will remain the same. We considered tossing all names in a hat and “rerolling” the groups but the fact is the playtimes of our players dopes not allow for it. The good news? Half of the new group’s players have been in Karazahn as alternates so they are not going in cold. They are a strong group of players who have some experience in all fights and we feel that this will allow them to be just as successful as the groups that preceded them.

We hope to get a forth group together in the near future but are really excited to have been able to get three going at this point. I owe it all to the honest and open communication and information that was given to us by our players to allow us to sort it all out and match up players into well balanced groups.

In Closing

imho, the key to transitioning and continuing to grow as a guild in TBC is to have a strategic plan, share it with your players and keep your plan on track. You will find that most of your players will embrace this approach as long as they can see where they fit in and what the ultimate reward is for them. No one wants to be forgotten or left behind and even the most casual players can be worked into a Karazahn group, it may take longer than your players with open schedules, but it can be done. It is a lot of work but the return can be priceless ;)


This guide is now available for download in .pfd format:

http://www.resurrection-guild.com/guides.html

Thanks for the update, Wytch.

After some extraordinary nagging, my guild is working on more than one Kara team, but getting the concept of static teams through to people has been frustrating. The guild leadership seems divided on the issue, or doesn't understand the concept, or is incapable of direct communication. This has resulted in one Kara team hunkering with its head down (and making steady progress); one team (making swift progress) upset with the cries for substitutions, and another team with some pretty severe morale issues, most of which are leaching down from the RL (who has been sending unfortunate whispers to others such as 'these people suck') and a couple of key players (who have been talking about swapping out their own players because 'they don't have enough healing/threat/dps/you name it'.

My wish is to have several teams that are static that incorporate most of the raiding players. Some of our raiders are very strong players; some are weaker but have a good history of being able to follow directions in raid groups and perform raid tasks adequately. And, if we have any players who fail to do so, or who are so evidently lacking in skill/gear etc to function, we have the example of several prominent people in the guild who have 'taken a break' from raiding until they felt they were at an adequate level to do so. Our ethic is to help our members succeed through content; not merely to succeed. We've had this ethic for a good long time and there are very few people in the guild who aren't right on board with it (and those few are the brand new ones who haven't been sent the memo, so far as I can tell). So far as I can tell, we do not have anyone left in the guild who is repeatedly left out of Kara runs. Like most guilds, we have a surfeit of DPS, but it's a rare Kara night that does not have at least one team looking for another player or having (at most) one or two on standby status.

We did attempt to have a meeting or two on the Kara issues, but all that developed was a series of complaints and veiled insults directed by a couple of people in the unsuccessful group at other players both in and not on their team; and a vague promise/threat to mix the teams up, which upset many people and seemed to placate no one. I'm not pleased with the track record of our Come-to-Jesus meetings; mainly because there seems to be no moderator maintaining order, and things devolve quickly.

As best I can discern, the previous problem that we had with Kara was that there were multiple people rotated in and out through one raid group, because of a RL who was genuinely doing his best to be 'fair' to the large number of raiders that we had. This group (I'm guessing) never gelled, and interest in raiding declined sharply till several groups were set up. I am told there was some communication with guild members regarding their participation in these events, but I've seen no record of this. (For all I know, it is there and is someplace in the leadership forums.)

All of the squalling that I'm hearing has to do with people not wanting an 'elite' team set up to clear Kara. I don't believe that we've set up an elite team. We have one team that is ONE boss behind the others. The members and leaders of the other team are lending whatever assistance they can muster to help that team succeed, whether it be advising its members on spec, helping members respec/regear/farm consumables, researching strats, and offering to attend/advise on keyed alts. Some of us have already worked many hours on this very project. There are multiple people on this team who have indicated willingness to do whatever is needed to crack the encounter to make people feel better. All three teams have distinct ways of handling the encounters.

I've been very hesitant to post the particulars of my guild on this forum, because I don't much care to air dirty laundry. I just don't see this problem that we're facing as being more than a few complainers who need to be told to hush with the attitude. The guild leadership seems to think that maintaining the same teams would be destructive to morale -- but I'm beginning to wonder whose morale. There seems to be a belief that people are drifting to the successful teams... but the numbers just don't seem to jibe with this. Both of the teams that are doing well have cautiously made a couple of substitutions but have kept the main dps-healing-tank triad the same. I do not know what the low-morale team has done.

What's your thoughts on this, Wytch? I hate to act like the 10-ton gorilla in the guild, but I really don't like watching everyone collapse back into apathy and misery.

Thanks for the update, Wytch. One thing, your explanation of 'what is your true schedule' in post #2 (third) seems to be cut off. This is actually the issue we're having the most trouble with.

We did not do nearly the amount of groundwork that you did, and that has both good and bad aspects to it. The result is that we have a little bit of trouble pinning some folks down on when they can actually raid. But it seems to me that this would be the case even if we had talked to them in-depth. Our biggest problem is that people say 'oh, I can make it' or 'I want to be a regular raider' but then when the raid's forming, they're nowhere to be found, or don't want to switch off their alt, or aren't prepared. Just in the last day or so, we've come up with what we think the difference is: Some people plan to raid. Other people think "Oh, hey, a Karazhan raid. That would be fun! Can I get an invite?" And it's just not going to work.

I do like your conditions for continuing raiding, and may just lift them wholesale for our guild. It seems like that might be the kind of thing that would help us. Really, the issue I'm having is that there are people who are not reflecting on what their honest status is. They SAY they want to be raiders, and they get upset when they aren't invited to groups, but then they don't show up. Given the history of our guild (if you showed up for the raid, you pretty much got a spot in a 40-man raid), it has been difficult for us to put our foot down and say 'then you're not going to be invited'. We'd rather try to work something out, and so far that has ranged from highly disruptive to impossible. So that's really our biggest challenge. Your conditions would be a stated, objective way of dealing with it.

Axxoney, I don't know if you're in my guild or not, but it sounds a bit like ours (well, it's not, I know). We are pushing the static team concept, to the point of trying to set up a third team, because we feel the benefits of a set team allow us to have different raid times and cohesiveness. Like you, we have 2 teams, and the second team is now basically one event behind the other (one has tried Aran and beaten Chess, the other has beaten Curator). And that's with a significant amount of difference in time spent in the instance (the 'behind' group has only gone 4 weeks, at least 3 weeks less than the 'ahead' group).

Yet, there are still some people who insist that there is an 'elite' group, and they're not in it. This attitude is really wearing on the officers, because it's patently false. There's been no stacking. Officers are represented on all teams. So how to deal with it? I don't know, really. The only way I can think of is figure out who's continuing to say that stuff, have a face to face with them (although that seems to be not so helpful, as people seem to be rarely honest with leadership when the person talking to them thinks they're not sympathetic to their cause), and if it continues, then invite them to leave the guild.

Rip, my dear, you know me well from these boards; I can't seem to log into my usual posting alt. No, I do not belong to your guild, though it sure does sound interesting.

If I were leading my guild, the RL of the team that has poor morale would be relieved of responsiblity. The people in that raid who have been making destructive comments would be placed on probation with the express understanding that they would NOT talk in the raid unless it directly related to their own performance. Then I would join that team and work with it until it regained its confidence. "Government by committee" in that raid would cease to exist until I was satisfied that the interactions between its members would continue to be positive.

I learned, too late to my vast regret, that accomodating complainers will cause you to reap the whirlwind.

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Q u o t e:
What's your thoughts on this, Wytch? I hate to act like the 10-ton gorilla in the guild, but I really don't like watching everyone collapse back into apathy and misery.

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I think to build a sturdy home that will weather the storms and stand the test of time, you need to start with a strong foundation and a guild is no different. I think static teams are the way to go in the beginning. Those teams need to have goals, even if it is to say we are running this team for 4 weeks and then reevaluating where we are. If a static team is open ended and no one really knows how long it will run then it can begin to appear that no one will ever get a shot at being with that group and that can be very frustrating to those watching from the “sidelines”.

This comes back to having a really clear plan, sharing it with players and following through on what you plan. It sounds like your guilds plan was never really clear to anyone; perhaps it is not even clear to the leaders, tough to say since I am doing a bit of guess work here. If that is the case, perhaps it is time to “back the truck up”, and figure out what the plan is. When that has been identified and there are some check points in place then share it with the guild. I am sure there will be some push back as it sounds like there are some trust issues and sadly the only way to rebuild trust is to follow through on what the plan is and give it some time. The people in your guild are confused and feel a bit abused and it sounds rightly so. I am sure the intention was never to have people angry and hurt but it happens. I think it is always fair to say - well that did not work as we planned, I apologize, let’s take this path instead…

As far as being “fair” to everyone, people get hung up on what is "fair" and it is interesting how that definition waivers from player to player. While I think that all should eventually get an opportunity to raid if they wish (the principle that Resurrection was built on) I do not believe that 8 people should suffer through countless wipes and repair bills to be "fair" to the 2 under geared players just because they wanted to see the inside of Karazahn. While it may be being "fair" to those 2 who got to come along - it was not fair to the 8 that may have made progress with 2 players who were better prepared. Sounds like your raid leader trying to cycle folks through while trying to be “fair” to some is not being fair to others. There are guilds that really promote being "fair" at any cost and if that means the party wipes every night they go in, then that's what they do. If it works for the guild - more power to them. I have found that that is generally not the case and wiping for the 8th time for the evening with no progress and trash respawning ceased to be fun 7 wipes ago... If it aint working and it is causing an issue then you need to fix it.

The “disgruntled players” need to be dealt with on an individual basis. For the newer people that came into the guild, they of all people should be very clear on their roles, it should have been explained to them in great detail before they clicked “yes” to, “awesome leader wants to invite you to join awesome guild do you accept?”. If they are unclear on the concept clarify it, have them repeat clarification to ensure they got it and let them know you will expect never to have to have a conversation with them again about their role in the guild. For the older disgruntled players, let them know the need to trust, that maybe there was some mix ups but they are being worked on and the transition is tough for all guilds. Share with them the plan and let them be involved in helping it along. As for those who still want to naysay and dig their heels in – ask them what they would do in your case. I had an player throw a fit last week in g chat because they did not want to fill the role we needed their character for in the raid, I told them when they can explain to me how the warriors were going to assist in healing then I would be open to discussing his not healing… It stopped the conversation right there. When people are annoyed they can feel the need to vent and many times they are venting w/o looking at the bigger overall picture, when that is pointed out to them they can then begin to see a more strategic view. I was not being mean to the player by not letting him play the role he wished, I was looking at the bigger picture of what did we need to be successful as a raid group.

Bottom line – take control and be responsible for that control. I know it all sounds “easy” when posted here – it is not – I feel for all Gls trying to make the transition, we are all going to make mistakes but if we remain honest about it and keep working hard to solve the issues as they pop up, there really is no limit to the success you can achieve with a well informed motivated guild (and have a damned fun time doing it).

/my wall o’ text crits you for 50K…

The census idea makes great sense-us. Er, great sense.

This is a perfect thing for a computer to do.

WRT actual changes in TBC that my guild saw, I was mostly surprised at how much tbc actually divided the guild in bad ways. We're used to 40-man runs, where you get with your friends for a while and go kill monsters together. TBC made some very small, but very tight groups. The problem is that some people (it's prevalent in our society) feel that to win, someone else has to lose. Some competition is very good.. it pushes you to excel, but when it becomes a way of life to be competing against your own team, that's just warped.

We ended up with some 4 kara teams and a 5th in progress. But birds of a feather resulted in one of our teams being full of people that were a bit more harsh (to each other) and enjoyed that as comraderie. But this was not really the style of speech or whatnot allowed in the larger raids. It worked great for them, though. However, I noticed a distinct chilling effect in /g, plus a huge amount of negativity on our forums from some of the members. I finally bit the bullet, and started gkicking. This was about as popular as a lead balloon, and pretty much the entire group left or was kicked.

Honestly, I really like most of the people that left, although they simply weren't willing to adjust my style of guild... thus they're in their own now. That's okay with me because we're all happier.

But the point of all this is that TBC has introduced different mechanics that were unexpected to previous raiding guilds. I knew something would happen, but it was not really possible to predict it.

Groups break off and form cliques, and this is now part of the game mechanics. Players who are under the curve are getting ostracised because nobody can carry them in a 5-man heroic. And even if you improve dramatically, if you've been labelled as someone who won't enchant gear, or comes unprepared, or can't out-dps the tank -- you suffer instancing invite death and are stuck in PUGs.

So, I actually throw some blame at blizzard for causing cliques which, essentially, force guild splits. It is something all GLs must be aware of, and take early steps to handle it.

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Q u o t e:
Thanks for the update, Wytch. One thing, your explanation of 'what is your true schedule' in post #2 (third) seems to be cut off. This is actually the issue we're having the most trouble with.

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Ooops sorry fixed that ;)

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Q u o t e:
Our biggest problem is that people say 'oh, I can make it' or 'I want to be a regular raider' but then when the raid's forming, they're nowhere to be found, or don't want to switch off their alt, or aren't prepared. Just in the last day or so, we've come up with what we think the difference is: Some people plan to raid. Other people think "Oh, hey, a Karazhan raid. That would be fun! Can I get an invite?" And it's just not going to work.

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I find it completely rude when people do not show up for a raid they said they would and I tell them that flat out. “Your fellow players made time in their schedule to raid last night, they were there on time and prepared and you were the reason they could not go as you chose to blow them off so do not expect a raid spot soon and if per chance you do get one be very aware that if it happens again you will be moved to a non raiding rank and we will recruit top replace you.” Some may see that as mean and unnecessary but how mean and unnecessary was it for that player to disregard the work of 9 others? Now if you got called into work, your child was in an accident, you were praying to the porcelain god all night then that is always going to be excusable, those are all acceptable reasons to miss and are the exception not the rule. If the player “Wasn’t really feeling it dawg”, or decide to gain that last bit of rep on their alt – to hell with them (nice tone eh?) Does anyone really need a player like that in their guild?

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Q u o t e:
I do like your conditions for continuing raiding, and may just lift them wholesale for our guild. It seems like that might be the kind of thing that would help us.

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Any and all text from here or on our site is welcome to be borrowed in its entirety or edited to better suit your guild – consider it open source ;)

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Q u o t e:
Really, the issue I'm having is that there are people who are not reflecting on what their honest status is. They SAY they want to be raiders, and they get upset when they aren't invited to groups, but then they don't show up. Given the history of our guild (if you showed up for the raid, you pretty much got a spot in a 40-man raid), it has been difficult for us to put our foot down and say 'then you're not going to be invited'. We'd rather try to work something out, and so far that has ranged from highly disruptive to impossible. So that's really our biggest challenge. Your conditions would be a stated, objective way of dealing with it.

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Come to Jesus meeting – “The times have changed guys, this is a new and different game and we need to adjust the way we do things if we ant to continue with the success we have had in the past. This is what I need from players (insert needs here) and most of all I need you to all be the adults you are and be very honest with me about your schedules. We are planning for the future and to do that we need honesty, yes we may need to bring new folks in to help out, yes some of you may not get to go to Karazahn right away. My goal ois to get everyone in there that wants to go and it may take a while to do that but with your patience and help it can be done and here is the plan……”

It is a leap of faith for all of us – leadership and players alike – the game is new and the old rules no longer apply and it is time to talk about that elephant sitting on the table ;)

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Q u o t e:
So, I actually throw some blame at blizzard for causing cliques which, essentially, force guild splits. It is something all GLs must be aware of, and take early steps to handle it.

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The cliquey thing is tough - no doubt - and when we see it start to happen we nip it in the bud. We do try to keep groups of freinds together but remind them all the time that that can change and they may be in different groups - if that does not work for them I will hold the door so it does not catch them on the butt...

We do small changes to the groups and large changes to them (breaking the orignal group in half) and we talk to the leaders of them and see where we are and decide on how to proceed. While the gorups are mostly static, we can swap players between groups when we see a need. We keep all informed of this and field questions and answer those as well.

I actually like the challenge of TBC, I am proud of our players and their hard work to help out where they can. They arenot passive players and have no problem in stating what they want and asking tough questions - the progress we have made was made by all of us - regardless of where characters are physically when the boss falls ;)

Thank you for your kind words, Wytch; I'm reasonably certain that they're being scrutinized even now.

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Q u o t e:
The cliquey thing is tough - no doubt - and when we see it start to happen we nip it in the bud. We do try to keep groups of freinds together but remind them all the time that that can change and they may be in different groups - if that does not work for them I will hold the door so it does not catch them on the butt...

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/dodge

Hello,

I decided to start kinda lurking around here. Much to my surprise see a huge post from my benevolent leader :)

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Q u o t e:
Groups break off and form cliques, and this is now part of the game mechanics. Players who are under the curve are getting ostracised because nobody can carry them in a 5-man heroic. And even if you improve dramatically, if you've been labelled as someone who won't enchant gear, or comes unprepared, or can't out-dps the tank -- you suffer instancing invite death and are stuck in PUGs.

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Anyway, Vuelhering, and I hope that I am not coming off as an elitist prick but I want to win. From heroics to raids to normal 5 mans. TBC, acknowledged by most people, raised the bar seperating raiders and casual. When I want to run a heroic I will typically whisper people for it. I know who can handle it and who can't. There has to be a willingness on the part of the person wanting badges. If the willingness is there I'll usually help them get it.

Wether it be 490 defense on a prot warrior or a priest needing two more steamvault runs to get their key, the willingness is there. But if a person doesn't bother tweaking their gear, or carrying a stack of consumables, or any other number of things to fine tune their char to run heroics or karazhan they usually stop getting whispers from me... They become a big liability when you have 5 or 10 people executing a strategy.

If someone's been labeled as dead wieght and wants to change people's opinion of them they have a long road ahead of them. Even if you gotta "pug it" a few times to get your gear/rep/ and your own reputaion in the guild up it's worth it. if you want to raid

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Q u o t e:
I decided to start kinda lurking around here. Much to my surprise see a huge post from my benevolent leader :)

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I do a lot of huge walls of text posts around here ;) I like to crit people with their uberness of space taking up ;)

To Craal's point - if a player shows unwillingness to step up and do what needs to be done to be successful in a group then that player should not be surprised when they sit out a lot. Again as I stated early, it comes back to "fair" being perceived as equality of all even though some players may not be putting equal time into their characters and may be at a place where their character is a detriment to a raid which makes it not fair to the other players in the group. There is a fundamental difference between, I like these players and will only group with them and I am looking for players who are committed to being the best they can and giving it 110%. It is the former we look to avoid, not the latter…

We had a player slated for the next Karazahn team step out. I know she wants to go, I know she is excited and she is working hard to get her character geared up but she is not quite there yet. She made a conscious choice to step out and better gear her character and I applaud her for thinking in terms of the group and not of herself. That is how people should be thinking, that to me is being fair to everyone.

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Q u o t e:
I'm reasonably certain that they're being scrutinized even now.

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they usually are ;) I am pretty opinionated but am also quick to agree that what works for us will not work for all but if it can help a few guilds out there then the purpose has been served.

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Q u o t e:
If someone's been labeled as dead wieght and wants to change people's opinion of them they have a long road ahead of them. Even if you gotta "pug it" a few times to get your gear/rep/ and your own reputaion in the guild up it's worth it. if you want to raid

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No, I'm not defending the dead weight... but the new mechanics do single people out. But more importantly, the issue is more like 5 people raid together, and they eschew everyone else in their guild. It encourages cliques is the issue I have.


Oh, and your benevolent leader is one heck of a typer... she posts some pretty big tomes, but generally, everyone really likes her advice :)

Bumping for further reference.

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Q u o t e:



I don't know if this is exactly what you do, but I find that beginning to ignore someone over a period of time is a pretty lousy way to exclude them. I think it is far more efficient to point out exactly what the problem is, like tell them straight out "you're not tweaking your gear right, you haven't been and I don't get the feeling that you will" and then say that that is why they aren't coming to the raid. I think clear communication, being as specific as possible, eliminates any room for hard feelings to arise.

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What we expect of our players to advance is clearly communicated ;) So much so they probably would like to install a volume knob to turn me down at times - "Yes, yes Wytch we get it!!!" ;) We are very good at assisting our players, I do not know any one of us that will not go out of our way to help.