Myth: Moonkin can't sustain high end dps

Reality: Moonkin can't sustain wrath spam

The two are not the same.

I keep seeing people posting how a balance druid can do burst damage but not sustained. This is incorrect. Wrath is great burst damage, and a big starfire crit is burst damage, but a druid is not limited to wrath, and a druid can cast starfire for a long time. Starfire becomes a DPS machine with high level of + arcane damage that you could not achieve with normal + damage, and the endurance it gives balance druids.

As a balance druid, I really had to drive myself to justify my spot being a dps spot, as most people don't believe balance druids can do dps. So I experimented a lot with different combos, and about the best I could find was flask of mighty restoration, blackened sporfish, and major mana oil + wrath spam. Wrath made for some good dps, but to be able to spam it, I had to stack on crap loads of MP5. I kept thinking if I could use supreme power, or crunchy serpent, or brilliant wizard oil instead of mp5 I could really jump up there, but I always had mana problems when I tried. Thus given the mana effeciency of starfire, and items like spellfire set that gave larger amounts of + arcane damage than you would normally find + all damage, I decided to try arcane damage set. Several weeks later, and a new profession I got my spellfire set.

So I finished my arcane set a couple weeks ago and was trying to figure out what would be a good testing field for my arcane set VS warlocks, shadow priests, and mages. A bit of background, my guild currently has 2 groups that clear Kara, my group kills prince, but not Illhoof or Nightbane yet. We are not in SSC, but kill Maulgar and Gruul every week. So were all on pretty level playing field when it comes to gear.

So when it came to finding a good fight to measure DPS on, Gruul seemed to be it. I tank Kiggler, and with the constant interrupts from him that the rest of the ranged dps doesn't deal with, the Maulgar fight did not seem a fair testing ground. Gruul on the other hand has the same mechanics for every ranged caster, had a good amount of hp, so seemed a good place to test dps. Even this fight however has advantages for warlocks and shadow priests, whose dots can keep doing damage during ground slam, while other dps classes drop to almost no dps during ground slams.

It was a very nice surprise this week when we got a bugged Gruul. No hurtful strikes, no silences, no ground slam/shatters. This means it was 4 minutes of pure dps, non stop casting, no holds barred, who can do the best DPS straight - no breaks.

My group was: Shadow Priest / Shaman / Mage / Resto druid / Me
Thus, I got wrath of air totem, bringing my numbers to:
+1455 arcane damage / 21.85% crit

I forgot to ask mages, but there was 1 lock also in the 1400's for shadow damage, and then 2 other locks and 1 shadow priest in the 1300's. (The shadow priest is normally at 1458 w/ flask and shammy but forgot a flask this night, thus was 1308).

Here's me with my arcane damage & buffs showing:
http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/5263/moonkin1br2.jpg

Here's the DPS charts:
http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/7223/moonkin3ut6.jpg

The charts look odd because someone (turns out it was me) was reading ranged dps twice, once as a raid member and once as a non raid member. For those that can't click, and for an easier view, here are the results:
280,223 - Horao (druid)
275,273 - Zaklothar (warlock)
258,646 - Krayzed (warlock)
249,947 - Wrez (mage)
236,903 - Gertie (priest)
227,139 - Gualfelix (rogue)
201,731 - Cristalized (priest)
201,105 - Elabala (warlock)
198,132 - Sanchojuan (priest)


This is not in any way one class is better than others, or anything of the sort. It is simply proof that balance druids can dps with the best.

and then next week (and every week after that) when you fight gruul with all of his abilities the warlocks will pretty much double your damage because it's a mobility fight and locks will *%*! all over the damage charts.

but grats tho

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Q u o t e:
and then next week (and every week after that) when you fight gruul with all of his abilities the warlocks will pretty much double your damage because it's a mobility fight and locks will *%*! all over the damage charts.

but grats tho

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Elemental shaman hating on a balance druid, who'd have thunk it. But I'll play along.

Double my damage would be over 480-500k damage for a warlock to do. Since Gruul's hp nerf that's not going to happen. The time it would take a warlock to do that, Gruul's grows would be beyond healable. Some day when you get to Gruul you'll understand what I mean.

http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/748/moonkin4qm9.jpg

From last Sunday, normal Gruul with all his abilities. There's about a 35k difference, the majority of which is attributed to no shaman in my group (where as Sancho for example did). Only 1 warlock was there, so I'll agree we don't see how the other 2 would have done (But Zak's a shadowbolt spammer so he'd have the same mobility issues I do). It does favor warlocks and shadow priests, as evident by the jump in Sanchojuan's damage when comparing bugged to non bugged (he also didn't have a flask for the bugged one).

So yes, Gruul's fight does favor warlocks and shadow priests, and sure mabye I'll drop a spot or two. But your statement doesn't change the fact that I can keep up with their damage and depending on the fight, out perform.

Fact: Your DPS classes are absolutely terrible and/or doesn't flask/pot out for something extremely easy like Gruul.

Unfortunately you're showing total damage. Not your DPS.

ARGGG... so much cloth m8ey! jeebus. Have some respect for leather man =P

I'm entirely /jk by the way, gratz on dps =P

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Q u o t e:
Fact: Your DPS classes are absolutely terrible and/or doesn't flask/pot out for something extremely easy like Gruul.

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Haha, took much less time than I thought for this.

So... moonkin can sustain high end dps when fully flasked, buffed with a shadowpreist providing 250mana/5, shaman providing mana stream, blessings?

Major mageblood, supremem power, dam/spirit food, damage or mana oil?

Is that spirit of zanza?

You can't change the fact that the moonkin's mana return options are the worst in the game.

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Q u o t e:
You can't change the fact that the moonkin's mana return options are the worst in the game.

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This Feral Agrees

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Q u o t e:
Myth: Moonkin can't sustain high end dps

Reality: Moonkin can't sustain wrath spam

The two are not the same.

I keep seeing people posting how a balance druid can do burst damage but not sustained. This is incorrect. Wrath is great burst damage, and a big starfire crit is burst damage, but a druid is not limited to wrath, and a druid can cast starfire for a long time. Starfire becomes a DPS machine with high level of + arcane damage that you could not achieve with normal + damage, and the endurance it gives balance druids.

As a balance druid, I really had to drive myself to justify my spot being a dps spot, as most people don't believe balance druids can do dps. So I experimented a lot with different combos, and about the best I could find was flask of mighty restoration, blackened sporfish, and major mana oil + wrath spam. Wrath made for some good dps, but to be able to spam it, I had to stack on crap loads of MP5. I kept thinking if I could use supreme power, or crunchy serpent, or brilliant wizard oil instead of mp5 I could really jump up there, but I always had mana problems when I tried. Thus given the mana effeciency of starfire, and items like spellfire set that gave larger amounts of + arcane damage than you would normally find + all damage, I decided to try arcane damage set. Several weeks later, and a new profession I got my spellfire set.

So I finished my arcane set a couple weeks ago and was trying to figure out what would be a good testing field for my arcane set VS warlocks, shadow priests, and mages. A bit of background, my guild currently has 2 groups that clear Kara, my group kills prince, but not Illhoof or Nightbane yet. We are not in SSC, but kill Maulgar and Gruul every week. So were all on pretty level playing field when it comes to gear.

So when it came to finding a good fight to measure DPS on, Gruul seemed to be it. I tank Kiggler, and with the constant interrupts from him that the rest of the ranged dps doesn't deal with, the Maulgar fight did not seem a fair testing ground. Gruul on the other hand has the same mechanics for every ranged caster, had a good amount of hp, so seemed a good place to test dps. Even this fight however has advantages for warlocks and shadow priests, whose dots can keep doing damage during ground slam, while other dps classes drop to almost no dps during ground slams.

It was a very nice surprise this week when we got a bugged Gruul. No hurtful strikes, no silences, no ground slam/shatters. This means it was 4 minutes of pure dps, non stop casting, no holds barred, who can do the best DPS straight - no breaks.

My group was: Shadow Priest / Shaman / Mage / Resto druid / Me
Thus, I got wrath of air totem, bringing my numbers to:
+1455 arcane damage / 21.85% crit

I forgot to ask mages, but there was 1 lock also in the 1400's for shadow damage, and then 2 other locks and 1 shadow priest in the 1300's. (The shadow priest is normally at 1458 w/ flask and shammy but forgot a flask this night, thus was 1308).

Here's me with my arcane damage & buffs showing:
http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/5263/moonkin1br2.jpg

Here's the DPS charts:
http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/7223/moonkin3ut6.jpg

The charts look odd because someone (turns out it was me) was reading ranged dps twice, once as a raid member and once as a non raid member. For those that can't click, and for an easier view, here are the results:
280,223 - Horao (druid)
275,273 - Zaklothar (warlock)
258,646 - Krayzed (warlock)
249,947 - Wrez (mage)
236,903 - Gertie (priest)
227,139 - Gualfelix (rogue)
201,731 - Cristalized (priest)
201,105 - Elabala (warlock)
198,132 - Sanchojuan (priest)


This is not in any way one class is better than others, or anything of the sort. It is simply proof that balance druids can dps with the best.

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Good, try that without mana regeneration flask/ classes. The fact that a moonkin depends on heavy use of flasks, other classes/spec combos being in their group to be viable plus having far less utility than any other caster affirms the fact that balance druids are NOT o.k. in a raiding environment. Can they work? Yes. Are they practical to put to use like warlocks/mages/elemental shamans/shadow priests? No. The last question is what makes or breaks you in a raiding guild's decision to take you in.

Horao's numbers are unimpressive.
What they show is that balance druids can perform on par. This isn't a thread about how raiding guilds should be scrambling to recruit moonkin; it's about how moonkin compete against other classes in a raid environment.

"But Horao's buffed to the teeth!"
He's buffed to the teeth, and so he hit #1 on the damage meters. Lesser buffed people hit lower - sometimes *much* lower on the damage meters. It's safe to assume that if everyone had equal gear, Horao wouldn't be #1 on the meter, but he would be unimpressively just staying in stride with everyone else. And that's the point.

"He is has a shadow presit!"
He did not use mana potions for the fight as a result. If you're a balance druid, you know that a good shadow priest will let you chain spam wrath for the entire Gruul encounter. Horao would have been fine without a shadow priest with his setup of chain spam starfire in +arcane gear.

The group he was in had to be tailored for him.
This is in direct response to Lunarrayne's comment. Horao had: Shadow priest, Resto druid, Mage, Resto Shaman. The mage and resto druid are not helping him - in fact, it's the other way around, and Horao's aura is helping with healing, DPS, and possible the mage's DPM with clearcasting. As stated earlier, he did not need the shadow priest.

As for wrath of air there's two points I want to bring up. Firstly, it gives 101 spell damage. If Horao were alliance with blessing of kings, he would have had about 26 spell damage. The remaining 75 spell damage contributed (75 damage / ~2.8 avg cast from NG & QE) * 1.2185 = 33 DPS. The fight lasted just over 4 minutes - assuming 4:15, (280,223 damage / 255 seconds) = 1099 DPS. Thus, if Horao were Alliance, he would have pushed out 1066 DPS without needing any special group buffs, a.k.a. he can be put into a group with 4 rogues and still perform at this DPS.

1066 DPS over 4:15 then puts him at 271,830 damage, making the meters look like this:
275,273 - Zaklothar (warlock)
271,830 - Horao (druid)
258,646 - Krayzed (warlock)
249,947 - Wrez (mage)
236,903 - Gertie (priest)
227,139 - Gualfelix (rogue)
201,731 - Cristalized (priest)
201,105 - Elabala (warlock)
198,132 - Sanchojuan (priest)

If you can look at that number, factor in moonkin aura, know that it can be achieved without any party buffs, and do a ballpark estimate of what the numbers would look like given similar gear, it is painfully obvious that moonkin can hold their own.

The second point I want to make about group composition is this: Someone has to use that shadow priest. Someone has to use that shaman totem. Balance druids scale the best with every stat compared to every caster (apart from crit for elemental shamans). So your mages can make do without shadow priests - that's great, but you're still bringing a shadow priest to a raid. Instead of letting the priest just save your mages' cash, why not put the regeneration to use by letting your moonkin wrath spam? A lot of people don't seem to know what they even believe themselves about mages.

If we believe that moonkin are not raid viable because they need a shadow priest to survive, then we have to subsequently believe that mages are raid viable because they do not need a shadow priest to survive. But if this is true, that mages do not need a shadow priest to survive, who the heck is going to get the benefit of your shadow priests? The moonkin. And thus he's viable.

Anyways, I've made this far too long. Thanks for all the information Horao.

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Q u o t e:
So... moonkin can sustain high end dps when fully flasked, buffed with a shadowpreist providing 250mana/5, shaman providing mana stream, blessings?

Major mageblood, supremem power, dam/spirit food, damage or mana oil?

Is that spirit of zanza?

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Yeah, what a stupid guild, we flask and buff to conquer new content. Yes we kill Gruul every week now, but it's new enough that we still flask up to make sure we 1 shot it.

Damage food, wizard oil, and yes it's spirit of zanza. I use it on the Maulgar fight since I tank Kiggler and it was still there for Gruul.

As far as a shadow priest, yes I had a shadow priest this week and last, which allowed me to not use pots. But when I don't have shadow priest I do have to use pots, but I still have plenty of mana the entire fight. It doesn't change my ability to do the entire fight with mana to spare. I'm saying my damage doesn't change with or without a shadow priest in my group.

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Q u o t e:
Fact: Your DPS classes are absolutely terrible and/or doesn't flask/pot out for something extremely easy like Gruul.

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Easy to say hiding behind a level 2.

Show me any guild that isn't in SSC that uses no consumables on Gruul.

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Q u o t e:
Unfortunately you're showing total damage. Not your DPS.

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True, I forgot to get a shot of that as someone cleared the damage meters fairly quickly. But a 5 minute fight is 300 seconds long, which makes 280,000 damage 933 dps. Since we killed it in just over 4 minutes (someone mentioned the exact time I didn't capture it though) it's over 1000+ sustained dps.

moonkin can sustain high dps.... they can also get one shot when they pull aggro LOL

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Q u o t e:


Show me any guild that isn't in SSC that uses no consumables on Gruul.

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We only used flasks downing gruul Pre nerf.

We dont use flasks or pots now its such an easy fight.

WE didnt use flasks Pre SSC either.

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Q u o t e:
moonkin can sustain high dps.... they can also get one shot when they pull aggro LOL

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Amazing. Such a raw display of intelligence. Noone's ever seen a caster class get one-shotted in a boss fight before... It's completely unheard of!

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Q u o t e:


We only used flasks downing gruul Pre nerf.

We dont use flasks or pots now its such an easy fight.

WE didnt use flasks Pre SSC either.

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He said flasks/pots, are you saying your casters don't use oil or adepts elixir, and your melee doesn't use agility? Nobody in your raid uses any pots? Cause that's what I was responding to.

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Q u o t e:
moonkin can sustain high dps.... they can also get one shot when they pull aggro LOL

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Moonkin don't pull aggro if you have a decent tank. Aggro issues are overblown.

The op made his point. Moonkin can sustain high end dps. Everyone else in the post made their point, a moonkin in a raid is just not a viable and justifiable raid slot. Everyone rejoice. This thread will rehash the same arguments for days if people don't let it go.

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Q u o t e:
The op made his point. Moonkin can sustain high end dps. Everyone else in the post made their point, a moonkin in a raid is just not a viable and justifiable raid slot. Everyone rejoice. This thread will rehash the same arguments for days if people don't let it go.

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You're missing the main point of threads: To achieve visibility on a particular topic. Controversial/Heated threads like this one are bumped for blue visibility, too.