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Q u o t e:
50 tries is like 12 hours of wiping. Any group with the stoicism to wipe that much will also be good enough to not need so many tries.

Why bother putting in a restriction if it's so ridiculously generous?

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50 tries is a lot. Over 3 nights on firefighter we put in 47 attempts (got the kill on liek the 13th attempt on the 4th night). I dont expect these fights to be as tough as firefighter, and these firefighter nights were like get in, pull by 7:05, and keep going without breaks, 3 minute wipe recovery. The 50 attempts thing is a hard barrier at the fringe of progression. It will probably only prevent the super zerg guilds from getting it. I know it is probably going to be tough to fit in all 50 attempts along with normal totc, and ulduar hardmodes and 0 light attempts.

People need to stop freaking out and saying "OMG BLIZZARD IS LIMITING MY PLAYING TIME". There is plenty of other content. If you are wiping 50 times on the first boss and then sitting around for the rest of the week, you are probably in one of the guilds that isn't intended to run this instance in the first place and would have never seen it in previous incarnations of blizzard's raid design.

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Q u o t e:
50 tries is like 12 hours of wiping. Any group with the stoicism to wipe that much will also be good enough to not need so many tries.

Why bother putting in a restriction if it's so ridiculously generous?

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I take issue with your math. New encounters can easily wipe under the 5 min mark at first. A good guild pushing content will raid 4 days week 4 hours or so per raid pushing 6 wipes or more per hour depending on the phase of the learning. Besides why does this need to exist? If you say its not a pacing mechanism then what is it?

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Q u o t e:
Currently some strife in the office as the bets roll in. Some are saying nobody will clear this coming week (therefore burning all 50 wipes before beating Anub). *I*, however, have faith in you guys.

Don't let me down!

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okay

Must beat the Dev challenge!

The good thing about the whole 50 attempts thing is that it will reward people who pause and things about things rather than facefroll until stuff dies (I hope).

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Q u o t e:
Currently some strife in the office as the bets roll in. Some are saying nobody will clear this coming week (therefore burning all 50 wipes before beating Anub). *I*, however, have faith in you guys.

Don't let me down!

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Do you usually place bets on these things?

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Q u o t e:
Currently some strife in the office as the bets roll in. Some are saying nobody will clear this coming week (therefore burning all 50 wipes before beating Anub). *I*, however, have faith in you guys.

Don't let me down!

---

At least a few guilds will do it.

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Q u o t e:
Currently some strife in the office as the bets roll in. Some are saying nobody will clear this coming week (therefore burning all 50 wipes before beating Anub). *I*, however, have faith in you guys.

Don't let me down!

---

Let's see...
With mains in 10man, on our initial attempts we...
2shot beasts
1shot the eredar
2shot the faction champions
1shot the twins.

With alts in 10man, we...
1shot beasts
2shot the eredar (I forgot I had to purge)
4shot the faction champions, 9man
1shot the twins.

With 10 players pugged, plus 2 or 3 budget friends (rather than core raiders) in 25man, we...
2shot beasts (the pug tank failed at taunting)
2shot the eredar (the pug tank DC'd)
2shot the faction champions (we actually had to assign CC targets, admittedly)
1shot the twins.

And here's the important part--we're good, but we're not that great. And people think that the top guilds, decked in 25man gear, will take more than 50 wipes in hardmode? As before, I sincerely hope this is indicative of the increase in challenge.

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Q u o t e:
Currently some strife in the office as the bets roll in. Some are saying nobody will clear this coming week (therefore burning all 50 wipes before beating Anub). *I*, however, have faith in you guys.

Don't let me down!

---

Depends how you guys tuned it. My guess is that at least a few guilds will do it week 1, so many guilds out there.

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Q u o t e:


Let's see...
With mains in 10man, on our initial attempts we...
2shot beasts
1shot the eredar
2shot the faction champions
1shot the twins.

With alts in 10man, we...
1shot beasts
2shot the eredar (I forgot I had to purge)
4shot the faction champions, 9man
1shot the twins.

With 10 players pugged, plus 2 or 3 budget friends (rather than core raiders) in 25man, we...
2shot beasts (the pug tank failed at taunting)
2shot the eredar (the pug tank DC'd)
2shot the faction champions (we actually had to assign CC targets, admittedly)
1shot the twins.

And here's the important part--we're good, but we're not that great. And people think that the top guilds, decked in 25man gear, will take more than 50 wipes in hardmode? As before, I sincerely hope this is indicative of the increase in challenge.

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You seem to overestimate what normal mode means. it us supposed to be accessible to anyone essentially.


Given that the devs are betting against us finishing it i think that would be fairly indicative of how hard they expect it to be.

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Q u o t e:
You seem to overestimate what normal mode means. it us supposed to be accessible to anyone essentially.

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IIRC, they also said they didn't expect to make any more raids as easy as Naxx was.

If Blizz wants to give out free epics for running heroics, because the community for some reason thinks that they "fail" at the game without ilvl219+, fine. I just hope the hardmodes require a real learning curve.

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Q u o t e:


IIRC, they also said they didn't expect to make any more raids as easy as Naxx was.

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That's out of context. They don't want to make content that's easy and have nothing else for hardcore guilds to do.

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Q u o t e:
Currently some strife in the office as the bets roll in. Some are saying nobody will clear this coming week (therefore burning all 50 wipes before beating Anub). *I*, however, have faith in you guys.

Don't let me down!

---

Could be tuned either way so really who knows but you.

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Q u o t e:
That's out of context. They don't want to make content that's easy and have nothing else for hardcore guilds to do.

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Look, I know it's not Blizz's fault. They're a company, they do what gets (and keeps) the most people playing. And sad as it is, a huge portion of the community has forgotten that there's no universal winning or losing in a game like this--they've decided that not having the top items = failing = losing. And accordingly, to "win," they all think they have to have top item level gear...despite only running heroics, say, for which it's completely pointless to have gear like that.

That said, it doesn't make it any less frustrating for us gamers--the ones who like getting better gear not because it's shiny and purple, but because of its aid in getting to the next encounter. Because that is how you really win an mmorpg--you accept a challenge, rise to it, beat it, and get to see the next challenge. If a "challenge" for player A is heroic HoL, that's fine...except the "tell me how wonderful I am" portion of the community, the ones who do 2.5k DPS in ilvl 219/226 gear, have become a sufficient force that Blizzard, as a business, now has to cater to them.

(Edit: Cater to them more, I should say. The degree to which Blizz sought to include those players throughout BC was great--as new (difficult) content came out, the older content was nerfed--thus ensuring that for all choices of degree of challenge, there was something for each player that he or she had not yet seen. And no, this isn't a "WotLK sucks" message--but yes, there is one aspect of BC I vastly preferred.)

That's the point I was trying to make. I can't blame Blizz for so much of the content being trivial, or for handing out gear better than ulduar10 hardmodes for running heroics--Blizz isn't my friend, it's a business. I do hope, however, that these hints of "OMG learning curve inc!" aren't misplaced, is all.

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Q u o t e:


Look, I know it's not Blizz's fault. They're a company, they do what gets (and keeps) the most people playing. And sad as it is, a huge portion of the community has forgotten that there's no universal winning or losing in a game like this--they've decided that not having the top items = failing = losing. And accordingly, to "win," they all think they have to have top item level gear...despite only running heroics, say, for which it's completely pointless to have gear like that.

That said, it doesn't make it any less frustrating for us gamers--the ones who like getting better gear not because it's shiny and purple, but because of its aid in getting to the next encounter. Because that is how you really win an mmorpg--you accept a challenge, rise to it, beat it, and get to see the next challenge. If a "challenge" for player A is heroic HoL, that's fine...except the "tell me how wonderful I am" portion of the community, the ones who do 2.5k DPS in ilvl 219/226 gear, have become a sufficient force that Blizzard, as a business, now has to cater to them.

(Edit: Cater to them more, I should say. The degree to which Blizz sought to include those players throughout BC was great--as new (difficult) content came out, the older content was nerfed--thus ensuring that for all choices of degree of challenge, there was something for each player that he or she had not yet seen. And no, this isn't a "WotLK sucks" message--but yes, there is one aspect of BC I vastly preferred.)

That's the point I was trying to make. I can't blame Blizz for so much of the content being trivial, or for handing out gear better than ulduar10 hardmodes for running heroics--Blizz isn't my friend, it's a business. I do hope, however, that these hints of "OMG learning curve inc!" aren't misplaced, is all.

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Going to disagree with you here. A just dinged to game, reroll etc needs a way to be to meld into the next teir. Gear is repaced that is the game so my t2 wondergear is gone...so what. My gripe this whole thread has been if you want a pacing mechinism attempts and timers are just stupid. Bet all you want but bet on this...I cant speak for anyone else but attempt/timer mechanisms piss me off.

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Q u o t e:
Going to disagree with you here. A just dinged to game, reroll etc needs a way to be to meld into the next teir.

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How about this?

A just dinged to game, so A hasn't run heroics. Thus, A can run heroics and be entertained--because it's something new for A. A will pick up ilvl 200 gear in heroics and progress into Naxx...where A will pick up ilvl 213 gear and progress into Ulduar (something else A hasn't yet seen)...etc. Alternatively, A will make some friends, be pulled into runs, and get gear (that no one else needs anymore, most likely) showered upon him (or her)--and thus catch up. What does it matter that you (presumably) and I have seen Ulduar to A? I've also read books that A probably hasn't read, does that mean he (she) shouldn't bother reading them, too? (And no, talking about MC through Sunwell doesn't count--that's no longer top level content. Heroics, for example, are.)

B is a reroll. So B can easily tag along with guildies/friends/etc to heroics, naxx, ulduar, whatever. We recently had a friend return to the game from a long hiatus (thus, similar to a reroll)--and we took his 1500 DPS toon to both Ulduar and ToC, plus we ran heroics for him.

It's a moot point, and not what this thread is about. Just wanted to point out that there is another solution besides "OMG, MUST HAVE ilvl 226+!"

I personally think everything will be one shotted and most guilds will use about 45 wipes on faction champions.

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Q u o t e:
How about this?

A just dinged to game, so A hasn't run heroics. Thus, A can run heroics and be entertained--because it's something new for A. A will pick up ilvl 200 gear in heroics and progress into Naxx... [...]

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Going to stop you there.

Nobody is running Naxx anymore. The gear is outdated compared to what you can get from ToC normal. The only reason to even roll into Ulduar is if you have something to prove with hardmodes. And you won't be proving anything to anyone other than yourself since ToC and Triumph gear is already floating around, rightfully diminishing the accomplishment. New player X is behind the curve, and if there is ever any hope of him/her catching the progression wave rather than hopelessly being left behind, it is doing whatever is necessary to get player X in the Coliseum content.