---

Q u o t e:



This one is real easy. Give us 5% crit to Wrath and Starfire! It's obviously worked the last two tiers (save the wrath on T6, but who casted wrath then?). You KNOW how to do this one, instead of giving us a buggy, half working, POS 4 set bonus and expecting us to wear sub-par T8 gear to get it.

On a side note, I do enjoy the design philosophy on Moonkin T8. Let's remove 2% crit, some haste, give you a bunch more spirit (WHOOOO) and hit (whoo for the first 300+ hit), and then give you a 4 piece that we've known is broken. You guys can live with a retarded 4 piece on top of already questionable gear, right?

/rant

Sorry, but it needed to be said.

---

Actually it didn't really need to be said.

You caught a mistake by GC in his comment about the bonus, congrats all of you. You now have all won the internet. Congrats. People make mistakes it's time to move on.

They need to leave the bonus the way it is and make it work exactly how the nightfall proc works, and hot streak works.

It's a simple fix just make it work the same way as those two talents work which are already in the game.

And to all the people trying to discuss RNG and eclipse it's been said a million times, GC has also commented on it and his idea was pretty fricken solid on how to change it, let it run it's course I bet we see a change on how eclipse works in the next mid size/big patch.

---

Q u o t e:


Actually it didn't really need to be said.

You caught a mistake by GC in his comment about the bonus, congrats all of you. You now have all won the internet. Congrats. People make mistakes it's time to move on.

They need to leave the bonus the way it is and make it work exactly how the nightfall proc works, and hot streak works.

It's a simple fix just make it work the same way as those two talents work which are already in the game.

And to all the people trying to discuss RNG and eclipse it's been said a million times, GC has also commented on it and his idea was pretty fricken solid on how to change it, let it run it's course I bet we see a change on how eclipse works in the next mid size/big patch.

---

The thing is we don't have time to wait another month or two for a change. We needed the change a while ago, now its nearly to late and were falling behind, inc bench for 25 man hard modes

K lets fix itand soon so we can use it. Then maybe after the numbers are in we will like it. If we do keep it I would like it to proc off of moonfire as well since your going to lower the rate. Especially if you take it back to 5 percent.

I feel a tad sorry for protagonists of the 4-set bonus now.
It really WAS meant to be bad.

---

Q u o t e:



Murmurs, I generally respect your posts a lot, but that still doesn’t give you free reign to break the forum rules.

I know exactly how Nightfall works and how the new set bonus works. They work differently. The reason they work differently is that Nightfall is a talent so it is okay, in our minds, to muck up the spell with a lot of special cases since those cases will largely exist forever. Messing with Starfire to make the tier set work better is unattractive because then the spell is laden with this special-case stuff that will only be relevant for a few months in 2009. Yet we will have to live with the risk of that code breaking or falling out of date forever (or at least as long as WoW endures, which I suspect will be longer than 2009). :)

I make mistakes sometimes, and WoW is a very complex game, but assertions that the players understand the mechanics better than the developers are almost always going to be incorrect.



Yep.

My take home from this thread is not to respond next time. My trying to share some information did nothing to improve the conversation. We could have fixed the bonus and players would have eventually noticed. When we spend time to moderate a thread, that is less time we have to work on the game. If your purpose here is to post garbage about how we don’t care about your class, please please please just spare us.

---

Please don't let a few angsty teenagers scare you away from the balance community. I know that I and many other people appreciate the information you give us regarding any aspect of the game, nerf or buff.

Thank you GC for all the information and I assure you our ranting is just that we moonkins feel like we have been ignored in almost all areas of the game. And when we do get a response we like to jump on it. If you look at all the changes from clas to class from spec to spec and we moonkins really have not changed alot. Still our main spell is starfire and our secondary is wrath. Mainly it is due to mana issues from spamming wrath. But I digress.

Thank you once agian for the info I just dont want you guys to forget about us. And even if you get the tier to work you do realize that 7 percent is 2 low. Look at the math and you will see what we are talking about. Even if you left it at 15 percent i think we would only see around a 400 dps increase if we get to use everyone.

Suggestion leave it at 10 percent and lets see what happens. I really dont want anymore nerfs before we can see the numbers on live.

---

Q u o t e:
I know exactly how Nightfall works and how the new set bonus works. They work differently. The reason they work differently is that Nightfall is a talent so it is okay, in our minds, to muck up the spell with a lot of special cases since those cases will largely exist forever. Messing with Starfire to make the tier set work better is unattractive because then the spell is laden with this special-case stuff that will only be relevant for a few months in 2009. Yet we will have to live with the risk of that code breaking or falling out of date forever (or at least as long as WoW endures, which I suspect will be longer than 2009). :)

---

Then my quesiton is what is the point in the 4pc bonus then? If the reason they don't work the same is because of the length of time they'll be in game, then why give us this bonus?

I'm just having a hard time understanding what the intent of the bonus is, and what direction this takes moonkins in general.

---

Q u o t e:


Then my quesiton is what is the point in the 4pc bonus then? If the reason they don't work the same is because of the length of time they'll be in game, then why give us this bonus?

I'm just having a hard time understanding what the intent of the bonus is, and what direction this takes moonkins in general.

---

I do believe that Blizzard's design philosphy is that set bonuses are meant to be nice little additions for collecting a whole set, but by no means good enough to keep you from breaking the set bonus (aside from t7 :/) . With a 15% proc rate the instant starfires proc more than enough to add a little bit of extra damage i would've not had on a few fights - yogg, thorim hardmode (pushing the gauntlet), and it worked rather well for solar eclipse rotations. I think a large problem is that most Moonkin are expecting our tier bonuses to be absolutely amazing after the Tier6 and 7 bonuses.


edit: you edited :(

---

Q u o t e:

My take home from this thread is not to respond next time. My trying to share some information did nothing to improve the conversation. We could have fixed the bonus and players would have eventually noticed. When we spend time to moderate a thread, that is less time we have to work on the game. If your purpose here is to post garbage about how we don’t care about your class, please please please just spare us.

---

Honestly? We needed the response - people may behave badly in reaction to what you say and how you say it sometimes, but without any response to the issue our frustration would have escalated.

The issue is that we *thought* we were getting a version of Nightfall, which works, and you guys didn't plan to make it work that way. Your most recent explanation (that you didn't code it that way because of the temporary nature of a set bonus and potential long term effect on the code) in addition to the promise to find a way to make it work properly was what we needed.

What we didn't need was to hear "oh, the bug's why we bumped up the proc rate, we weren't going to fix the bug". Because a lot of moonkins are still using a Lunar Eclipse rotation right now - we haven't had the chance to drop enough haste and pick up more crit to make Solar worthwhile, or we're concerned about the mana usage of casting that many Wraths, etc.... making the effect proc more often only to be consumed more often without being able to use it frustrated a lot of people, and hearing that was intentional made them angry.

Moonkins are frankly frustrated about a lot of things right now - the overload of spirit compared to DPS stats on our tier gear, lack of non-tier leather that's itemized so we'd want it, losing a heck of a lot of crit in addition to having wild DPS swings in Ulduar because of all the movement, continuing PVP issues... Just not responding and figuring we'd notice when our 4pc bonus started working properly might seem attractive after having your own and your team's intelligence lambasted repeatedly on the forums, I suppose... But most of us either haven't finished picking up 4 piece or would have stopped using it by the time the fix is in.

We were getting desperate for an answer. Thank you for finally giving us one that we can hang on to. I'll now go back to waiting for my shoulders and chest to drop instead of snagging cloth and irritating my mage guildies :)

---

Q u o t e:


I do believe that Blizzard's design philosphy is that set bonuses are meant to be nice little additions for collecting a whole set, but by no means good enough to keep you from breaking the set bonus (aside from t7 :/) . With a 15% proc rate the instant starfires proc more than enough to add a little bit of extra damage i would've not had on a few fights - yogg, thorim hardmode (pushing the gauntlet), and it worked rather well for solar eclipse rotations. I think a large problem is that most Moonkin are expecting our tier bonuses to be absolutely amazing after the Tier6 and 7 bonuses.


edit: you edited :(

---

I understand the design and philosophy behind the 4pc bonuses in general. I'm asking specifically about this one. If the lunar rotation is causing issues with how you want the bonus to work, then why implement the bonus in the first place? Eclipse is at a point where it does give variety (as they wanted to do) in rotations. A large number will go with the lunar (starfire proc) side of it, and a lot will go with the solar side of it (wrath proc). This makes the moonkin set bonuses hard to implement and compliment both rotations equally. The 2pc does this, and it's a great bonus. But it just feels like the 4pc is intended to push us to a solar rotation, and doesn't that go against what they want with us? Variety?

This is why I feel static gains for set bonuses are better overall for moonkins. It might force us to tier gear, but that helps solve a lot of gearing headaches that come from the sometimes shoddy itemization out there for leather v cloth debates, and it compliments both rotations well.

---

Q u o t e:

My take home from this thread is not to respond next time. My trying to share some information did nothing to improve the conversation. We could have fixed the bonus and players would have eventually noticed. When we spend time to moderate a thread, that is less time we have to work on the game. If your purpose here is to post garbage about how we don’t care about your class, please please please just spare us.

---

I disagree, I think your take home should be "respond with detail".

The problem was that your first response seemed very disingenuous. No one was expecting the proc to apply to the current cast, so your response saying that it couldn't was viewed as ignorance on your part (either purposeful or just a lack of understanding of game mechanics). I'm not saying you are ignorant - but I still find that response confusing, given the context of the thread.

On the other hand, when you post something like this:

---

Q u o t e:

I know exactly how Nightfall works and how the new set bonus works. They work differently. The reason they work differently is that Nightfall is a talent so it is okay, in our minds, to muck up the spell with a lot of special cases since those cases will largely exist forever. Messing with Starfire to make the tier set work better is unattractive because then the spell is laden with this special-case stuff that will only be relevant for a few months in 2009. Yet we will have to live with the risk of that code breaking or falling out of date forever (or at least as long as WoW endures, which I suspect will be longer than 2009). :)

---

Once you give us actual information your decisions make sense. I think most moonkins would simply prefer a different set bonus, but telling us the basic reason "why" for the bug up-front would have prevented a lot of the angst in this thread.

Dont stop caring about the moonkin spec cause some of you got a slap on the wrist.

Fill up the forums with moonkin information numbers claims just dont be insulting.

Programmers are a stange lot, or at least the ones I know are, They dont get everything right but they do know what they are doing. And if we can get them focused on moonkin just for a week we may get some stuff done that needs to be done.

Suggestion for the GC.

Make all your guys play a moonkin for a week in every aspect of the game compare the good and the bad and lets get moonkn fixed. They will get so frustrated in pvp they will want to change it there for sure. And they will also find out no matter how perfect you play as a moonkin you will never have the 5 percent difference between mages and moonkins that you were seeking.

---

Q u o t e:

With all due respect, can we ditch the semantics?

---

We could do that, but I don't think the compiler would function properly afterwords.

---

Q u o t e:


I disagree, I think your take home should be "respond with detail".

The problem was that your first response seemed very disingenuous. No one was expecting the proc to apply to the current cast, so your response saying that it couldn't was viewed as ignorance on your part (either purposeful or just a lack of understanding of game mechanics). I'm not saying you are ignorant - but I still find that response confusing, given the context of the thread.

On the other hand, when you post something like this:



Once you give us actual information your decisions make sense. I think most moonkins would simply prefer a different set bonus, but telling us the basic reason "why" for the bug up-front would have prevented a lot of the angst in this thread.

---

As usual, Smo says what I was thinking better than I do. ;)

I know it may be time consuming to have to come up with more detailed responses when you have a job to do in addition to perusing the forum for threads that could benefit from your input. A little bit more time up front in this thread would have resulted in a lot of happier moonkins, methinks.

Want some waffles GC? We druids likes waffles.... we offer them on our own forum all the time :D

/pets the crab

---

Q u o t e:

My take home from this thread is not to respond next time. My trying to share some information did nothing to improve the conversation. We could have fixed the bonus and players would have eventually noticed. When we spend time to moderate a thread, that is less time we have to work on the game. If your purpose here is to post garbage about how we don’t care about your class, please please please just spare us.

---

Dang ... and I thought you guys were suppose to have thick hides? Commenting like this is the equivalent of a child cupping his ears screaming "I can't hear you". Rather than controlling how people respond, control your responses. Most of your posts are wasted complaining about people's methods of complaining. Irony?
Yes, I said most. Not all. You have quite a few insightful and useful updates... but there are far too many posts (yes this is an opinion but it is shared by a lot of people) telling people they shouldn't post this way or that. It's not even that I'd like to see you spend more time in other threads, but stop proving to be overly sensitive by making the majority of your posts things that can be considered "QQ" in an of themselves. It's very hypocritical. For ever 1-2 good posts from you Mod's I have to read 4-5 posts that are whining about how people are posting. You can do that till your ears turn blue and you won't squelch a 11 million pop audience.

---

Q u o t e:
Yep.

My take home from this thread is not to respond next time. My trying to share some information did nothing to improve the conversation. We could have fixed the bonus and players would have eventually noticed. When we spend time to moderate a thread, that is less time we have to work on the game. If your purpose here is to post garbage about how we don’t care about your class, please please please just spare us.

---

That's quite a copout to turn this on the posters. The problem is that you referred to it as a technical limitation, then you later concede it is not. I understand your reasons for choosing to not implement the technology, but had you stated the reasons more accurately in the first place this would not have spiraled into a discussion of competency of the Blizzard staff.

---

Q u o t e:

I’m trying to give you a peek at how things are set up technically so you’ll understand the limitations. Don’t turn that into “Wow, your programmers must be noobs.” I can assure you they are the best in the business, and I’ve been in the business long enough to be able to say that. :)

---

Don't get me wrong, GC. I have huge respect for you and your team. It's not easy and I, unlike many/most, understand how looking through the looking glass skews the vision. By no means was I calling the programmers "noobs". However, even seasoned, dedicated, experience programmers make mistakes. Even seasoned, dedicated, experience QA and design teams make mistakes.

The point is bonus isn't good in its current form. Most would say horrible, which you have already read. My point was simple: if it is built as designed and it works as built, then the design and intent needs to be relooked at, which I believe is under your domain of control. If the intent was otherwise, which is what we, the moonkin community were lead to believe, then the programming/QA needs to be looked at because it simply doesn't do what it is intended.

I think its now clear that it was never its intent at a concept phase to truly make your "next starfire an instant cast". So maybe all this craziness really boils down to inappropriate terminology on the bonus description. However if you had made the tooltip say something like "Makes your current casting Starfire finish instantly or makes your next starfire instant cast" there would have been A TON of discussion what "current casting starfire" means when in a lunar rotation, problably led by Murmurs or Wisprunner, etc.

Again, not harping on the programmers, but more looking at the intent of the bonus. I think you have made it very clear that the intent was not what the moonkin community understood to be the bonus which alters the discussion.

---

Q u o t e:
We knew if the proc-happened mid cast that you might lose the proc. We tried to design the bonus so that wouldn’t happen often. Unfortunately with the way all of the other numbers work out, Moonkin are still chaining Starfire together a lot. We increased the proc rate to compensate, but that may not be enough, which is why we are looking into a technical solution to make the bonus apply to the next Starfire you start casting instead of the next Starfire that does damage. It might take a few days, but it will be long before the next tier of content is released.

---

So this is some good news. Looks like both an intent and a build change to alter the implementation. I am all for it. Let's see the results.

---

Q u o t e:
My take home from this thread is not to respond next time. My trying to share some information did nothing to improve the conversation. We could have fixed the bonus and players would have eventually noticed. When we spend time to moderate a thread, that is less time we have to work on the game. If your purpose here is to post garbage about how we don’t care about your class, please please please just spare us.

---

While I agree with the last part of your comment here, QQ'ng for the same of being a PITA does nothing constructive, there are many of us who are trying to be constructive and find solutions from a player side with limited knowledge of the inner workings and limited ability to be inside you and the programmers heads. Our ONLY, and will stress ONLY, link to that data repository is what you post. So when you post, it is poured over with a fine tooth comb. It's not because ( at least not me ) we want to prove you wrong, its because like many of us we have a passion for this class and we want to see it be righted and be a class that allows the player to show their talent instead of being hamstrung. You have done a terrific job of really closing the gap between TBC and now. It doesn't mean we don't appreciate the data sharing nor the information that is decimated. But overall it's like being kept in limbo. And when what we are told one week directly contradicts what we are being told told today, it will of course raise more than a few eyebrows and a few uproars from those that really care.