World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> 116% Armor Pen only giving 66%!?!?!?!

Ghostcrawler

Blizzard Poster

60. Re: 116% Armor Pen only giving 66%!?!?!?! 04/17/2009 04:05:53 PM PDT

Thanks for your patience. We have a lot of things we are looking at in the game right now and can't respond to every issue. We appreciate your not excessively bumping or launching new threads.

Based on preliminary tests, there doesn't seem to be anything amiss with how armor pen is calculated. There is a cap on the amount of armor you can reduce, but it is fairly complicated and depends on things like creature level and "class" (most mobs are warriors).

We'll make a break from tradition and post exactly how the armor penetration number is derived. We tried to examine some of the numbers posted in this thread, but they were complicated by extraneous factors such as not always knowing the target level, the effects of mace spec, and multipliers on say Bloodthirst that we couldn't ascertain.

Give us a bit to get some numbers together and complete our tests and I'll respond to this thread. As a quick and dirty calculation, assume that the cap on a level 83 warrior mob is 8205.75 * your percent of armor penetration.

Ghostcrawler
Lead Systems Designer

Pomopdude

Muradin

61. Re: 116% Armor Pen only giving 66%!?!?!?! 04/17/2009 04:07:12 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
Thanks for your patience. We have a lot of things we are looking at in the game right now and can't respond to every issue. We appreciate your not excessively bumping or launching new threads.

Based on preliminary tests, there doesn't seem to be anything amiss with how armor pen is calculated. There is a cap on the amount of armor you can reduce, but it is fairly complicated and depends on things like creature level and "class" (most mobs are warriors).

We'll make a break from tradition and post exactly how the armor penetration number is derived. We tried to examine some of the numbers posted in this thread, but they were complicated by extraneous factors such as not always knowing the target level, the effects of mace spec, and multipliers on say Bloodthirst that we couldn't ascertain.

Give us a bit to get some numbers together and complete our tests and I'll respond to this thread. As a quick and dirty calculation, assume that the cap on a level 83 warrior mob is 8205.75 * your percent of armor penetration.

^.^

yay data :)

[ Post edited by Pomopdude ]

Erythnhul

< Krimson Kaos >

Silver Hand

62. Re: 116% Armor Pen only giving 66%!?!?!?! 04/17/2009 04:07:54 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

We'll make a break from tradition and post exactly how the armor penetration number is derived. We tried to examine some of the numbers posted in this thread, but they were complicated by extraneous factors such as not always knowing the target level, the effects of mace spec, and multipliers on say Bloodthirst that we couldn't ascertain.

Give us a bit to get some numbers together and complete our tests and I'll respond to this thread. As a quick and dirty calculation, assume that the cap on a level 83 warrior mob is 8205.75 * your percent of armor penetration.

Whoa.

Please do these kinds of things (see bold) more often! <3

Cryses

Arthas

63. Re: 116% Armor Pen only giving 66%!?!?!?! 04/17/2009 04:14:14 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
Thanks for your patience. We have a lot of things we are looking at in the game right now and can't respond to every issue. We appreciate your not excessively bumping or launching new threads.

Based on preliminary tests, there doesn't seem to be anything amiss with how armor pen is calculated. There is a cap on the amount of armor you can reduce, but it is fairly complicated and depends on things like creature level and "class" (most mobs are warriors).

We'll make a break from tradition and post exactly how the armor penetration number is derived. We tried to examine some of the numbers posted in this thread, but they were complicated by extraneous factors such as not always knowing the target level, the effects of mace spec, and multipliers on say Bloodthirst that we couldn't ascertain.

Give us a bit to get some numbers together and complete our tests and I'll respond to this thread. As a quick and dirty calculation, assume that the cap on a level 83 warrior mob is 8205.75 * your percent of armor penetration.

Thanks, GC. Would greatly appreciate it if you did reply back to it. Im extremely curious how it folds out, and the numbers which you guys use for Armor Pen.

However, I think dy is trying to say that it didn't get the full effect of the 25% buff.

I accept there hatred, For it is born from there fear.
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Eitrigg&n=Darkfade
..I really don't like the nightelf avatar.

Pomopdude

Muradin

64. Re: 116% Armor Pen only giving 66%!?!?!?! 04/17/2009 04:16:39 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

Thanks, GC. Would greatly appreciate it if you did reply back to it. Im extremely curious how it folds out, and the numbers which you guys use for Armor Pen.

However, I think dy is trying to say that it didn't get the full effect of the 25% buff.

yep, people say it is a bug and the developers added an extra decimal place, so the 1.25% buff became a 1.025 buff.

Gnometal

< Dark Skies >

Elune

65. Re: 116% Armor Pen only giving 66%!?!?!?! 04/17/2009 04:18:18 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

I'm confused how you went from 23.76% then in the next part of the equation used 24.23 to subtract from the base mitigation.

I would think it would look like this:

116.5 * .204 = 23.76%
58.58 - 23.76 = 34.82%
100 - 34.82 = 65.18%
1465 * 65.18% = 954.9

Where did I lose you on this?

Edit: Thanks again to Dysent for clearing up more math.

My bad. It was a slip of the finger. I was paraphrasing from a post I made on another forum.

Cabaret

< Blood and War >

Turalyon

66. Re: 116% Armor Pen only giving 66%!?!?!?! 04/17/2009 04:21:41 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

My bad. It was a slip of the finger. I was paraphrasing from a post I made on another forum.

Np. Just double checking. The best math is the kind you can double check instead of figuring it out yourself. >.>

It's irrelevant anyway. GC is coming back with numbers some time in the near future. All will be revealed! Thanks GC for providing this information.

You can't do arena without Arena Juice™ - a cold, refreshing, 6 pack of Arena Juice™.

Quinten

< Drunk and Dangerous >

Hyjal

67. Re: 116% Armor Pen only giving 66%!?!?!?! 04/17/2009 04:22:21 PM PDT

Would this cap be on mobs only or would it affect players aswell? I.e Can I ignore 100% of a Dk's armor in arena?

Shatner for Prime Minister: Yes We Khaaaaaaan!

Skdall

< Resolute >

Eredar

68. Re: 116% Armor Pen only giving 66%!?!?!?! 04/17/2009 04:29:10 PM PDT

So ArP is hard capped at ~8200 armor reduction on raid bosses... or ~70%

Cabaret

< Blood and War >

Turalyon

69. Re: 116% Armor Pen only giving 66%!?!?!?! 04/17/2009 04:32:28 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
Would this cap be on mobs only or would it affect players aswell? I.e Can I ignore 100% of a Dk's armor in arena?

You should probably just wait for him to provide the numbers before asking more questions. Let's let the thread rest until then to keep the trolls away from it.

You can't do arena without Arena Juice™ - a cold, refreshing, 6 pack of Arena Juice™.

Hanzgrimm

< Restraining Order >

Laughing Skull

70. Re: 116% Armor Pen only giving 66%!?!?!?! 04/17/2009 04:36:02 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

We'll make a break from tradition and post exactly how the armor penetration number is derived. We tried to examine some of the numbers posted in this thread, but they were complicated by extraneous factors such as not always knowing the target level, the effects of mace spec, and multipliers on say Bloodthirst that we couldn't ascertain.

Thread bookmarked in anticipation.

Obscenitore

< HOASIS >

Laughing Skull

71. Re: 116% Armor Pen only giving 66%!?!?!?! 04/17/2009 04:40:18 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
Wasn't the POINT of moving ArP to a rating system to prevent things like attacking people with 0 effective armor on them?

No, it was so that armor pen would actually penetrate armor and not just be a cloth killing stat.

Gnometal

< Dark Skies >

Elune

72. Re: 116% Armor Pen only giving 66%!?!?!?! 04/17/2009 04:42:03 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

Np. Just double checking. The best math is the kind you can double check instead of figuring it out yourself. >.>

It's irrelevant anyway. GC is coming back with numbers some time in the near future. All will be revealed! Thanks GC for providing this information.

Problem is the bulk of the data is in a spreadsheet. I just looked over my post again and saw a few numbers off by a few hundredths =/ Pretty sure something got a little lost in the translation

Justikhar

Twisting Nether

73. Re: 116% Armor Pen only giving 66%!?!?!?! 04/17/2009 05:11:04 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

Based on preliminary tests, there doesn't seem to be anything amiss with how armor pen is calculated. There is a cap on the amount of armor you can reduce, but it is fairly complicated and depends on things like creature level and "class" (most mobs are warriors).

While getting more numbers and better formulas to use for our own spreadsheets down the road will always be appreciated, GC really gave the answer most players were looking for (for now), whether or not the amount of damage from ArPen we are seeing right now is "working as intended".

It would seem the answer is yes, even if the tooltips and mechanics behind those results are confusing.

"DKs were made with several years of feedback, while other classes are stuck with archaic features that are just now getting looked at." ~ GC

Tomaxx

< Monachus Orbis >

Kilrogg

74. Re: 116% Armor Pen only giving 66%!?!?!?! 04/17/2009 05:13:53 PM PDT

it almost sounds like it's working as intended. If that's true then is it worth gemming for pvp / pve?

Nomepunter

< Angry >

Illidan

75. Re: 116% Armor Pen only giving 66%!?!?!?! 04/17/2009 05:15:39 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
Thanks for your patience. We have a lot of things we are looking at in the game right now and can't respond to every issue. We appreciate your not excessively bumping or launching new threads.

Based on preliminary tests, there doesn't seem to be anything amiss with how armor pen is calculated. There is a cap on the amount of armor you can reduce, but it is fairly complicated and depends on things like creature level and "class" (most mobs are warriors).

We'll make a break from tradition and post exactly how the armor penetration number is derived. We tried to examine some of the numbers posted in this thread, but they were complicated by extraneous factors such as not always knowing the target level, the effects of mace spec, and multipliers on say Bloodthirst that we couldn't ascertain.

Give us a bit to get some numbers together and complete our tests and I'll respond to this thread. As a quick and dirty calculation, assume that the cap on a level 83 warrior mob is 8205.75 * your percent of armor penetration.

Thanks GC.

I look forward to the data.

Twilight Vanquisher (US 114th) Nomepunter of the Nightfall (US 22nd)

Dysent

< Roll Initiative >

Maelstrom

76. Re: 116% Armor Pen only giving 66%!?!?!?! 04/17/2009 05:18:10 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
Thanks for your patience. We have a lot of things we are looking at in the game right now and can't respond to every issue. We appreciate your not excessively bumping or launching new threads.

Based on preliminary tests, there doesn't seem to be anything amiss with how armor pen is calculated. There is a cap on the amount of armor you can reduce, but it is fairly complicated and depends on things like creature level and "class" (most mobs are warriors).

We'll make a break from tradition and post exactly how the armor penetration number is derived. We tried to examine some of the numbers posted in this thread, but they were complicated by extraneous factors such as not always knowing the target level, the effects of mace spec, and multipliers on say Bloodthirst that we couldn't ascertain.

Give us a bit to get some numbers together and complete our tests and I'll respond to this thread. As a quick and dirty calculation, assume that the cap on a level 83 warrior mob is 8205.75 * your percent of armor penetration.

Whoa, thanks more than I can tell you. It would have taken forever to figure out that class had an effect on ArP%, and to differentiate the effects of that, compared with ArP%, enemy armor etc.

Really appreciate you clearing up how this worked. It was extremely confusing... and it sounds like I was barking down the wrong tree trying to figure it out. A Cap# instead of global suppression, to ensure that you never get to remove 100%... Makes lots of pvp sense!

[ Post edited by Dysent ]

This ain't sea world... this is real as it gets.

Ghostcrawler

Blizzard Poster

77. Re: 116% Armor Pen only giving 66%!?!?!?! 04/17/2009 05:26:02 PM PDT

Okay, here is a fairly technical explanation we put together for how armor pen works.

We didn’t want Armor Penetration Rating to be too powerful against low armor targets, like it had been in BC. We also didn’t want Armor Penetration Rating to be too powerful against high armor targets.

So, we decided on a system where there is a cap on how much armor the Armor Penetration Rating can be applied to. So, the first X armor on the target is reduced by the percentage listed in the Armor Penetration Rating tooltip, and all armor past that X is unaffected. Another way of understanding that is we multiply the percentage in the tooltip times the minimum of the two values: the cap, and the amount of armor on the target after all other modifiers.

Computing the cap is a little tricky unless you are already familiar with how World of Warcraft armor works. There is an armor constant we’ll call C. C is derived as follows (in some pseudocode):

If (level<60)
C=400+85*targetlevel
Else
C=400+85*targetlevel+4.5*85*(targetlevel-59);

For a level 80 target, C=15232.5. For a level 83, C=16635.

The cap for Armor Penetration then is: (armor + C)/3.

A level 80 warrior creature has 9729 armor. C=15232.5. So, the cap is (9729+15232.5)/3=8320.5. Let’s say a player has 30% armor penetration from armor penetration rating and no other modifiers that complicate the calculation (talents, Battle Stance, Sunder Armor, etc.). The game chooses the minimum of 8320.5 and 9729, so 8320.5. That is multiplied by 30% = 2496.15, and so that much armor is ignored. The effective armor on the target is 7232.85 (9729-2496.15). From a player point of view, the armor penetration rating didn’t ignore the full 30%, but instead ignored 25.66%. (85.5% as effective as expected).

These equations should help you be able to test and verify that Armor Penetration Rating is working correctly and as we designed. The tooltip is not actually inaccurate, as it states: “Enemy armor reduced by up to 30.00%.” That "up to" is key.

Please be sure to test without any other effects which modify the armor calculation (Battle Stance, Sunder Armor, Mace Specialization, etc.) as they may involve other systems that add additional complexity to the calculation.

[ Post edited by Ghostcrawler ]

Ghostcrawler
Lead Systems Designer

Jamarcus

< Trucido >

Alleria

79. Re: 116% Armor Pen only giving 66%!?!?!?! 04/17/2009 05:33:36 PM PDT

Wow, This is something you'll rarely ever see.

Blizzard showing us their numbers.

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